Thin young lad needs a no kick gun!

PeeJay · Sep 13, 2024

A friend comes shooting with me and another pal occasionally. He’s mid 20s but thin. When he’s fired the clubs Browning 525, my Beretta 686 or my pals ATA (all 12 gauge) he ends up really bruised and painful. His technique seems okay as he’s found this even during a lesson. He wondered if a 20 bore would help but I don’t know enough to answer that. A quick look online said it might, in conjunction with a smaller cartridge. But someone else told him that it might make the recoil worse.

If he decides to consider getting his own, gun is it worth considering the 20 bore for less recoil, or are there better options. All the shooting would be clays.

perazman · Sep 13, 2024

What loads was he using? A 20 bore can easily kick more than a 12 as they tend to be lighter so absorb less recoil.

If he can handle the weight of a 12 bore then I'd definitely stick with it but use 21gm loads. (Comp X seem to be the softest). Make sure he has the stock seated correctly in his shoulder and his weight on his front foot. If he's still being bruised then you really need someone experienced to watch him to diagnose the problem.

PM.

MartynB · Sep 13, 2024

Agree with Perazman, the only real advantage a 20g over/under has over a 12 is on average they are 1 to 1,5 lbs lighter to carry if you are walking a long distance , which isn’t really relevant on a clay ground . Firing the same shot weight at the same velocity through a smaller diameter tube won’t give any benefit . Also consider that twenty gauge shells are typically £40/1000 more expensive in clay loads like for like .

Mike · Sep 13, 2024

A decent gas operated semi auto is the way to go. I use a Beretta AL 391 for clay's and it's perfect for me shooting 24gm cartidges.

It makes shooting a pleasure being a low recoil combination.

A hard rubber pad is the way to go with a gas operated gun, not a soft one.

chippy · Sep 13, 2024

Bruising is normally caused by poor mounting.

Yorkshire Clay Shooting · Sep 13, 2024

Well fitting o/u with a 21g cartridge nothing too light in terms of what the gun weighs. Need the weight to slow the gun down, does the trick or a gas semi auto. My a400 would cycle 21g and it was like a pellet gun

westley · Sep 13, 2024

I would go for a gas semi auto in 12 bore. The Armsan is excellent value for money, from what I have seen.

westley · Sep 13, 2024

chippy said:
Bruising is normally caused by poor mounting.

Or lousy gun fit ?

PeeJay · Sep 13, 2024

perazman said:
What loads was he using? A 20 bore can easily kick more than a 12 as they tend to be lighter so absorb less recoil.

If he can handle the weight of a 12 bore then I'd definitely stick with it but use 21gm loads. (Comp X seem to be the softest). Make sure he has the stock seated correctly in his shoulder and his weight on his front foot. If he's still being bruised then you really need someone experienced to watch him to diagnose the problem.

PM.

We use 28g, 7.5 shot.

Stupid question, but at our level ( keen beginners) will 21gm make any difference to the clays we hit. The course has a lot of options, from a rabbit 10 metres away, to fast pairs coming over the shoulder, to a high tower. Plus everything between, crossers, quartering, teal, grouse, and skeet, dtl etc. Would he (us) be okay with 21g and if so, what are the benefits of 28g.

SIMON-B · Sep 13, 2024

If he is very thin, then it may the pitch of the butt that's causing him problems.

PeeJay · Sep 13, 2024

SIMON-B said:
If he is very thin, then it may the pitch of the butt that's causing him problems.

It seems to be whatever he shoots though. The make/model of gun isn’t making a difference.

perazman · Sep 13, 2024

PeeJay said:
We use 28g, 7.5 shot.

Stupid question, but at our level ( keen beginners) will 21gm make any difference to the clays we hit. The course has a lot of options, from a rabbit 10 metres away, to fast pairs coming over the shoulder, to a high tower. Plus everything between, crossers, quartering, teal, grouse, and skeet, dtl etc. Would he (us) be okay with 21g and if so, what are the benefits of 28g.

The usual adage of "more lead, more dead" tends to apply in competition shooting but at your current level I'd certainly give them a try as they're more than capable of breaking most club type targets.

There's a huge difference in recoil between 21 and 28gm. You may find that's all that's needed to cure his problem.

PM.

SIMON-B · Sep 13, 2024

PeeJay said:
It seems to be whatever he shoots though. The make/model of gun isn’t making a difference.

Most guns have similar pitch. I am a big lad and need negative pitch on my guns to stop the heel digging in , if he is that thin he may need positive pitch to fit his shape. Could also be a technique issue. If he is getting hurt then subconsciously he may not be holding the gun properly in anticipation of the pain. A heavy gun and 21gram cartridges should let you know what the issues are. Hope you can help the lad out, we need more new shooters.

Freddypip · Sep 13, 2024

The problem is more likely to be gun fit than the cartridge as such. That can be issue with mounting and/or the gun and do not discount the "its going to kick, so I will mount to wrong out of fear" factor which very quickly makes things worse.

As pointed out a 20 gauge gun will weight less - a 21g in a 20 gauge will have more force back into the shoulder than a 24g in a heavier 12 gauge gun.

Buy a slab of X-comp 21 gram (fiber are easier) and get him to shoot them. If he finds them Ok, the mount will improve with confidence and then you could move up. 21 gram is fine under 30 yards and the next step (24g) is often considered more than enough full stop.

Freddypip · Sep 13, 2024

Simon-B makes a very good point. If the contact of the butt plate is not consistent (the pitch is wrong) then recoil will increase. Half contact on the butt plate - twice the kick into the area involved. As said the fit is likely to be the key factor.

PeeJay · Sep 13, 2024

I’m going to tell him these comments, then the next time we go we’ll put some 21g through my gun and see how he gets on. We’ll also look to see how he’s holding it, although I’m a bit wary because as I’m a beginner I don’t want it to be the blind leading the blind and saying the wrong stuff.

We’re definitely working on him getting his own gun and he’s generally up for it in principle.

SIMON-B · Sep 13, 2024

PeeJay said:
I’m going to tell him these comments, then the next time we go we’ll put some 21g through my gun and see how he gets on. We’ll also look to see how he’s holding it, although I’m a bit wary because as I’m a beginner I don’t want it to be the blind leading the blind and saying the wrong stuff.

We’re definitely working on him getting his own gun and he’s generally up for it in principle.

Does his mount look like this picture. If so he probably has a long neck and will need some gun fitting. Ideally you should be looking for a fit similar to the other picture. But hey we are all different shapes and sizes, I need a monte carlo stock to see down a flat rib shotgun.

Bavarian · Sep 14, 2024

Poor gun fit. Even petite Ladys could shoot without bruising if the gun fits properly.
21g will not solve the problem

Mr grumpy · Sep 14, 2024

Poor gun fit and/or mount.is the bruising on his shoulder or his face?
Make sure he is mounting it in the shoulder pocket and that his cheek is actually contacting the stock when he fires.

PeeJay · Sep 14, 2024

I’ll have a look at him the next time he goes. He doesn’t own a gun yet obviously. The bruising is mainly to his shoulder. This is the photo he sent, but he said it’s been much worse than this, this wasn’t too bad. He was using my Beretta and my pals ATA, neither of which have huge recoil.

P.S. I know this sounds like it’s me, saying it’s “a friend I know” but it really is this young lad

. I’ve found that the recoil with my own gun is now minimal and I can shoot well over 100 cartridges with no ill effect. Whereas he really feels it.

Thin young lad needs a no kick gun!

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