HSE publish proposal to ban all lead shot

Rwhite · Tuesday at 12:55 PM

Just enjoy the next 5 years.

For me the issue is not lead/alternative as I accept it was an inevitability. My concern is how fast can the cartridge makers refine and scale production to control prices. As others have said the biggest issue is our sport becoming a minority sport due to affordability.

jasper · Tuesday at 1:10 PM

PeeJay said:
You’re wrong. It’s not ‘simples’ despite you thinking it. The government introduced the compensation for some handgun owners when it passed the 1997 firearms act. It is under no legal obligation to repeat that, or offer compensation to anything else that’s banned.

They may choose to, but there is no legal requirement. If you think there is, provide the link.

It’s frankly naive to think that all (or even most) lead shot is collected and recycled. It’s this insistence that everything is okay and there’s no problems that has helped get us into this position in the first place.

It happened with fishing, and it’s happened in other countries with lead shot. It’s happening here, and not everyone will see it as a conspiracy.

I didn't say it was all collected. I merely stated it could be. On areas related to food production. Because that is what this all about lead in the food chain.
I'd like to see your legal argument for removing my property without paying me. It's called stealing. At no time did I mention compensation. Merely the removal of my property.. if they want my house for a road project they have to buy it .

Ali112 · Tuesday at 1:30 PM

Rwhite said:
Just enjoy the next 5 years.

For me the issue is not lead/alternative as I accept it was an inevitability. My concern is how fast can the cartridge makers refine and scale production to control prices. As others have said the biggest issue is our sport becoming a minority sport due to affordability.

PeeJay · Tuesday at 2:57 PM

jasper said:
I didn't say it was all collected. I merely stated it could be. On areas related to food production. Because that is what this all about lead in the food chain.
I'd like to see your legal argument for removing my property without paying me. It's called stealing. At no time did I mention compensation. Merely the removal of my property.. if they want my house for a road project they have to buy it .

Yes, they do. However, that is completely different to them banning something and then having to pay compensation to those affected. That’s not correct, it’s simply not true, despite you wanting it to be.

I’m not sure why you’re saying that at no time did you mention compensation…you did. I merely responded to your comment that “And you don't have to compensate all the gun owners like you would if you just banned shooting.” This isn’t about banning shooting, but even if it was, there is no legal requirement to compensate those affected by a ban brought in by the government.

You mention food production, but this isn’t all about food production. There has been a large push against lead shot for decades by the ecological and wildlife groups. Nothing to do with it entering the food chain, and all to do with the potential damage to wildlife.

You didn’t originally say that it ‘could’ be collected in areas of ‘food production’. Your comment suggested that it was collected and sold. That’s incorrect. Most shot is left in the environment, in concentrated amounts, in quantities far exceeding any lead found naturally, and readily accessible to wildlife etc.

Lead shot for fishing was first banned (certain sizes) in the U.K. in 1987, even though many believed (with some evidence) that it was mainly the shot from shotguns that was affecting the wildfowl, particularly mute swans. This ban has been on the cards since then and I’m surprised it’s taken nearly 40 years to happen.

FESkent · Tuesday at 8:50 PM

jasper said:
Exactly the attitudes that got us to this.
If you own something and the government takes it off you they have to pay you . Simples. As they had to when handguns were banned..
Lead from clay grounds which falls in specific places is easily cleared with a machine and recycled to provide a tidy sum for said clay ground. The same cannot be said of lead occurring naturally..As has been stated its a stitch up. Shooting ban via the back door. Catch up.

It’s not an attempt to ban shooting by the back door, rather it’s an attempt by shooting organisations, especially one of them to ensure commercial game shooting has a future and for that they need to be certain it has a market and the market is demanding it is lead free. And the only way to be certain is a total ban on all
lead shot as they do not trust guns to use non toxic shot at game if lead shot is still available.

look at it logically they are happy for labelling to go on rifle ammunition, stating not to be used on live quarry but not on cartridge boxes.

Then one shooting organisation is not happy that .243 rifle has been classified as large calibre and hence non toxic bullets only so they are quote,

“We will be funding research and gathering evidence to underpin further lobbying of ministers and officials on this”

but have not stated they are doing likewise for lead shot used by all within the constraints of a small land area ie a clay ground.
Possibly the same ground however that olympic competitors are still going to be allowed to use lead.

Why because the five year voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting was a complete failure so their goal is achieved by a total ban on lead shot except to a very few olympic competitors.

And yes I am a member of that organisation, a trade member and wait for them to prove my views wrong.

FESkent · Tuesday at 8:54 PM

And now full cost recovery for licence fees

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rural-communities-facing-steep-gun-153012980.html?guccounter=1

perazman · Wednesday at 5:43 AM

FESkent said:
And now full cost recovery for licence fees

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rural-communities-facing-steep-gun-153012980.html?guccounter=1

Weirdly this is something that doesn't trouble me so much though I appreciate it will others.

Even at say, £500 per licence, that's £100 a year. Equal to the cost of shooting one 100 reg when you factor in entry/carts/fuel etc. I'm currently forced to pay £170 for the privilege of owning a television! I know which I'd give up first!

If they're claiming full cost recovery then our associations can then pressure forces to provide a far better service than they currently provide.

PM

Yorkshire Clay Shooting · Wednesday at 5:57 AM

perazman said:
Weirdly this is something that doesn't trouble me so much though I appreciate it will others.

Even at say, £500 per licence, that's £100 a year. Equal to the cost of shooting one 100 reg when you factor in entry/carts/fuel etc. I'm currently forced to pay £170 for the privilege of owning a television! I know which I'd give up first!

If they're claiming full cost recovery then our associations can then pressure forces to provide a far better service than they currently provide.

PM

My thoughts exactly

Freddypip · Wednesday at 8:52 AM

I agree with the above - I have no issue paying the full cost of administrating the licenses. I would not want to pay for a licensing system I do not use so expect to pay in full for one I do. I also agree that if it's fully funding then we can expect it to be done properly & promptly.

On the wider point, I agree with FESkent in that I expect there is quite a lot going on here in terms of what works going forward - both compliance in European and the different interest in the UK and perhaps some personal agendas.

I'm a bit skeptical regarding that any additional statements from CPSA members would have made any difference. If there was 11,000 that's plenty to read and the role of the CPSA is to express the members opinion - we should not have needed to express our individual opinions for the Association's view to have the weight of it's members. The problem with the CPSA is that the government/HSE/whoever will realise it does not have the full respect of it's members.

Having said all the above, this is a done deal. There are too many examples of the central government simply not caring about even a large bulk of the populous so I'll work with it to avoid any sudden pain.

FESkent · Wednesday at 8:57 AM

perazman said:
Weirdly this is something that doesn't trouble me so much though I appreciate it will others.

Even at say, £500 per licence, that's £100 a year. Equal to the cost of shooting one 100 reg when you factor in entry/carts/fuel etc. I'm currently forced to pay £170 for the privilege of owning a television! I know which I'd give up first!

If they're claiming full cost recovery then our associations can then pressure forces to provide a far better service than they currently provide.

PM

partly agree as my medical GP report cost more than renewing my licences. However will £400 or £500 turn away prospective new comers to the sport. As add what £100 for GP reports and it starts to look painful.

Plus as often said are we rewarding the inefficient forces.

Jonny English · Wednesday at 10:29 AM

This was always on the cards, no amount of responses from shooters or organisations was ever going to change the out come, it was a done deal before it even started. Lead is toxic and shooters banging on about lead water pipes isn't a good enough argument I'm afraid to change the mind of the hse. Best outcome was always going to be to negotiate it on the best terms possible.

eightlittlebits · Wednesday at 12:25 PM

FESkent said:
And now full cost recovery for licence fees

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rural-communities-facing-steep-gun-153012980.html?guccounter=1

Probably a discussion for another thread, but realistically there's no way the current fees cover anything like the work involved.

People are happy to pay £35.80 a year (£179 for 5 years) for a fishing licence and for that you just get an email these days, there's no actual work done. An SGC is £79.50/£49 for a grant/renewal for 5 years

There's a definite argument to be had that the current system and performance is not fit for purpose and charging the increased fees cannot be justified, but if the service improves to the suggested targets of 12 weeks grant and 4 weeks renewal then £80 a year doesn't seem unreasonable.

FESkent · Wednesday at 5:27 PM

However you pay for the fishing licence annually and not in one big hit sufficient to put anybody of from taking up the sport.

Juniors may struggle to ask mum or dad to pay around £500 to get a certificate. The GPs will I bet think we can charge more.

Then if you read the labour pre election manifesto the £20 million raised from full cost recover of firearms licensing fees was for a knife crime initiative not to improve the licensing system.

Then society at large benefits from firearms licensing so historically the tax payer as made a contribution.

£49.00 inflation linked from 2015 is £66
£79.50 is £107

a big difference to £80/year £400.00/five years.

TRINITY · Wednesday at 5:49 PM

Reading the HSE document and reference is made to clay shoots having to change their target layouts and trap positioning to keep Steel safe. I would presume Skeet will be a thing of the past but the trap disciplines should have no problem

FESkent · Wednesday at 6:23 PM

I would think skeet will be ok, nothing for the shot to rebound from other than possibly the clay itself.

English sporting and FITAS shot within woods may be an issue, as with practical shotgun where they shoot at steel plates, others may know more.

TRINITY · Wednesday at 7:29 PM

FESkent said:
I would think skeet will be ok, nothing for the shot to rebound from other than possibly the clay itself.

English sporting and FITAS shot within woods may be an issue, as with practical shotgun where they shoot at steel plates, others may know more.

Not so sure, I have seen some hit the towers and quite recently I saw a guy get a pellet in his neck who was sat waiting to shoot behind the 4th peg,

Jonny English · Wednesday at 10:01 PM

TRINITY said:
Reading the HSE document and reference is made to clay shoots having to change their target layouts and trap positioning to keep Steel safe. I would presume Skeet will be a thing of the past but the trap disciplines should have no problem

Skeet has been shot with steel for years already. Quite common for skeet shooters to use steel due to the larger No of pellets in the pattern.

TRINITY · Thursday at 9:18 AM

Jonny English said:
Skeet has been shot with steel for years already. Quite common for skeet shooters to use steel due to the larger No of pellets in the pattern.

Well you live and learn, I never realised that. However I must add ,that steel is not allowed at any grounds I visit.

Thinking about the clay grounds I visit, the only things that can been seen as a ricochet threat are the skeet towers and their metal guards. Plus I suppose those metal boxes housing DTL traps. If skeet is not a problem with steel then other than maybe altering DTL traps housing, then steel should not pose any serious problems for clay grounds.

SBL · Thursday at 10:29 AM

Specifically for clay shooting, what is the rule in Europe?
My basic understanding was that in the EU, lead shot was banned but when I tried to find the rules, I couldn't confirm.

eightlittlebits · Thursday at 10:37 AM

SBL said:
Specifically for clay shooting, what is the rule in Europe?
My basic understanding was that in the EU, lead shot was banned but when I tried to find the rules, I couldn't confirm.

I'm not sure there is an EU wide rule for lead shot, the only thing I can find is that lead is banned in and around wetlands. This is only as of 2023 though.

We've had similar no lead around wetlands for a significant length of time. Wildfowlers have been shooting steel for many years.

HSE publish proposal to ban all lead shot

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