Aftermarket Chokes

[Jezek]

In apparent contrast to most posting here, I actually have seriously pattern-performance-tested a lot of chokes, OEM and aftermarket. Ten shots, the best available shells, counted pellets with shotgun Insight and the results analyzed. 

Old Invectors were a lot looser than their designation. The long ported ones - Smoke, Kicks, Patternmaster, and so on -  shoot a little tighter than the other ones of similar constriction of 0.040". But that only makes a difference for long-yardage handicap and that's not shot much by readers here, so it's not of any concern to most of you.

Otherwise, the differences generally are insignificant in pattern percentage, central thickening, or pattern spread. If there are any differences, it is the failure of one brand or another to live up to the generally high standard of the others. Makers' claims are, in general, unrelated to the performance of the product.

I hope someday to get the Brain ® choke I ordered. Down the road you will see how they work on my website, claytargettesting.com. 

If anyone has questions about anything specific, I may be able to post my results here so you can make up your own mind. I have, for example, Briley vs Teague in IM and full, various Mullers vs chokes of similar constriction from other makers, others.

Jezek

 

[Jonny English]

I have recently got some teagues for my 725. I originally picked up a pair of 3/8ths, but found I was smoking everything I hit. I patterned them at 30 yards and found a 30" spread at the absolute maximum. So I went and order a pair of quarters to try and open it up a little. 8 then patterned these quarters properly at 22, 30 and 40 yards with a Pellet count at 40 also.

The teague I/C produced 22" at 22, 32 at 30 and slightly in excess of 40" at 40 (pattern plate is 40" square) By spread charts the 1/4 patterned as a 1/2 should with Plas wad clay carts, on Pellet counts in a 30" circle at 40 yards it patterned as a 3/8ths. Game carts were a little tighter being about 3/4 on spread but still 3/8ths on Pellet count.

 

[timps]

I had a 682 Gold E and DT 10 I used standard, Muller and Teague.  Weight difference, added bling or placebo effect do make them worth it, if they give you confidence then definitely use them. If you are asking the question in the first place then I wouldn’t bother.

Patterning chokes does depend on the cartridge used so if you used brand X and someone uses brand Y the results could be very different. Bearing this in mind you have to understand what your current set up is doing and how you would like to improve it remembering the manufacturer may never have tested your cart so ignore them.

Buying a set of ½ aftermarket chokes that throws a tighter pattern than standard ½ choke when you actually want a more open pattern or vice versa is always an issue, especially  if you don’t know what your current set up is doing and how you want to improve it.

Chokes are all about statistics and improving chances, shooting an edge on clay at distance with Skeet choke means there is a possibility the clay can slip through the pattern if you shoot often enough.

Shooting full choke at Skeet ranges is also going to cost you a target if you put enough cartridges through the gun.

But here is the point, how many times does the above happen, a clay will only slip through the pattern every so often, you will only miss a clay by a few inches every so often.

If you are shooting sporting then unless you twiddle chokes at every stand what is the ideal pattern as each clay differs on distance and how much face showing.

Therefore the choice of choke is not going to gain you more than an odd clay on any given day and most days non-at all (discarding placebo effect).

If shooting with the extreme’s of skeet choke or full choke at every target is only going to cost you the odd clay over changing chokes at every stand then changing from standard to aftermarket of a similar constriction will give you even less.

Picking the right set up for your head is the best option, but we all have different opinions in our head as to which is best, it's the reason there is such a trade in aftermarket chokes and muti chokes. Speaking from experience standard ½ Beretta Optima choke is as good as anything on the market so don’t bother changing unless you like shiny things and wasting money like me.
 

 

[ChrisPackham]

I bought a Briley extended choke for my semi auto due to poor pattern from pigeon cartridges which i had bought in bulk, pattern still not great despite shiny new choke..  i agree, they appear to make no difference, in fact I'm not convinced choice general makes that much difference unless you are on your way to the olympics.

 

[Oldblaster]

Talking from experience the Browning DS Invector chokes that came with my 725 Sporter are spot on. Bought a 1/2 choke over the counter, so l could shoot 1/2 and 1/2 found the bought 1/2 choke a bit tighter, and kills the farthest targets with ease! So now shoot 1/4 and tight 1/2 perfect for me. The moral of the story is, find a conbination of chokes that work for you and stick with em! 

 

[AW13]

When for a practice shoot today with a semi.  Thought I would try a little experiemnt. I took a choke at random, [I have SK, IC, Mod and Full] had no idea what it was and made sure I did'nt peep at the markings on the end of the choke.  I then went around again with a different choke picked at random.

I shot all sorts of presentations from close to far and quite a few longer range quartering clays.

My scores where virtually identical and i think all the better for not knowing what choke was in the gun.   When I finished I fished out the 1st choke from my pocket, a skeet and then checked the 2nd choke -  a Mod..  

Conclusion - not knowing what was in the gun made no diffeence to the way I shot.  I think I will pop an IC in it and forget about changing in the future. 

 

[ips]

interesting ..

 

[MJJ]

Ideally you need a fixed choke multi-choke Whereby changing the choke is just a question of 'thinking theres a different one in there' Job done, no more fiddling.  :smile:

 

[Gavin]

I have recently got some teagues for my 725. I originally picked up a pair of 3/8ths, but found I was smoking everything I hit. I patterned them at 30 yards and found a 30" spread at the absolute maximum. So I went and order a pair of quarters to try and open it up a little. 8 then patterned these quarters properly at 22, 30 and 40 yards with a Pellet count at 40 also.The teague I/C produced 22" at 22, 32 at 30 and slightly in excess of 40" at 40 (pattern plate is 40" square) By spread charts the 1/4 patterned as a 1/2 should with Plas wad clay carts, on Pellet counts in a 30" circle at 40 yards it patterned as a 3/8ths. Game carts were a little tighter being about 3/4 on spread but still 3/8ths on Pellet count.

It's not the chokes that pattern tight.....it how tight (good) modern cartridges are compared to what was used when them choke charts were relevant

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[chippy]

It's not the chokes that pattern tight.....it how tight (good) modern cartridges are compared to what was used when them choke charts were relevant

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

That's why I can shoot an entire round of sporting with cylinder choke and hit 80%.

 

[Will Hewland]

That's why I can shoot an entire round of sporting with cylinder choke and hit 80%.

But give it some thought. With full choke that might be 78%. 

 

[AW13]

and if he shot with 1/4 or a 1/2 ? 

Would that mean a likely score above 80% ?

 

[Jonny English]

It's not the chokes that pattern tight.....it how tight (good) modern cartridges are compared to what was used when them choke charts were relevant

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

That's an interesting point. How long have choke charts been as they are? Were plastic wads available when the charts were set up? Do all chokes seem to shoot tight with plastic wad because the choke charts were set up when only fibre wad was available?

I have done quite a bit of research on the choke counts and spread etc and someone had written that choke charts were formed over a hundred years ago and that the way choke needed measuring wanted to be updated for modern guns and cartridges.

 

[MJJ]

Like most things in life there has to be a gauge/guide to go by, otherwise any old crap could be used. If there was no choke chart/gauge you would have no idea what you were using - regardless off when they were first introduced. The same goes for Mr Whitworth who standardised threads, as at the time no two threads were the same as they were all hand made. Imperial measurements go back yonks, but are still valid today, including the lb. That also goes for metric sizes. One could go on, but as for chokes they are a 'standard' with variations of, but you know what is what. Use what you feel is the best for you and thats it. Fixed chokes for me thought.  :smile:

 

[Jezek]

An earlier poster wrote, in part:

"Patterning chokes does depend on the cartridge used so if you used brand X and someone uses brand Y the results could be very different."

and this is certainly true. But, if you and "someone" were to get contrasting results,  what would be the likely cause of that difference? Here are three theories:

1. The differences in performance between two gun/shell combinations, shooting similar chokes but different shells are likely to be more ascribable to the gun (or choke tube or magical boring or reputation or selling price or whatever) more than to the shells.

2. The differences in performance between two gun/shell combinations, shooting similar chokes but different shells are likely to be more ascribable to the shells than to the gun.

3. That old canard, attributed in the US to barrelsmith Stan Baker, "Every gun is law unto itself" and there's no way to make sense of any of this anyway.

Let's look at an experiment which addresses the three accounts above. The experimental question is whether two guns, with the same choke (0.040") and shooting the same array of cartridges, will produce similar patterns and if so, will they  put the different cartridges in the same order, that is, will the best and worse ones in Gun A still be the best and worse ones in Gun B?

Consider three outcomes:

Outcome 1. The patterns produced by the two guns are different in pattern percentage and other respects but the basic order among the shells is similar. Proposed explanation: The differences found primarily are due to the guns.

Outcome 2. The patterns produced by the two guns are similar in pattern percentage and other respects and the basic order among the shells is similar . Proposed explanation: Pattern percentage differences found among the shells  primarily are due to the shells.

Outcome 3.  The patterns produced by the two guns are different in pattern percentage and other respects and order among the shells is different as well. Proposed explanation: Guns and the way they interact with particular shotgun shells, working together, really are a law unto themselves, defy predictions regarding their paired performance, and actually must be tested as a unit to ever know what you are getting. 

Every year I buy examples of all the available brands of similar shells, heavy 7 1/2's for example,  at the Grand American at Sparta, IL in the USA. Here's a result from the 2011 Grand.

First, some will wonder why I go to all the work (actually, the program Shotgun Insight does the hard work, I just run it, though shooting all the patterns required and counting the holes is far from a trivial task). Here's the result of testing three choke-constrictions

 

and here's three shell brands:

You not only have to count the pellet-holes but also organize the data in some aspect to understand what you have discovered. Here's a result of three shell-brands and a single choke:

And here are two more, tighter chokes:

And here's the gun with three chokes, one shell:

This result calls into question the common belief cited above, "Every gun is law unto itself." This gun, shooting chokes that vary by as much as 0.010". shoots a single brand of shell the same. It also underlines the fact the once you get to full, extra-full, or super-full constrictions, there is little or no difference between their performances within a single brand of choke tube.

Let's move on to a different gun shooting the same array of shells. In this case, it's a Remington 1100 with a 0.040 choke. While the first gun was a high-cost and admired brand with the currently-deregueur 0.040" bore and a similarly-vaunted customization history, the old Remington sported an untouched 0.725" bore which was probably bought at a gun show for under $100 leading to a $400 econo-trapgun. 

Here's how it patterned the same shells, Fiocci's were added to this test but may be ignored.

And now let's change the y-axis on an earlier graph to make them easier to compere:

The fact that these to very different gun responded to the three brands of shells in the same way leads us to accept Outcome 2 as a summary of what happened in this experiment.

Outcome 2. The patterns produced by the two guns are similar in pattern percentage and other respects and the basic order among the shells is similar . Proposed explanation: Pattern percentage differences found among the shells  primarily are due to the shells.

This is the overwhelmingly common outcome in tests like this. Guns are not at all "a law unto themselves;" guns and chokes and bores and so on with similar choke-restrictions perform in similar ways (unless there is something wrong with them). The performance of shotguns is far more similar & consistent , and lawful, than most shooters have been led to believe, read in the shotgun press and books, and are told at the club & on line. The problem is, it's a lot of work to find that out and you can't pay the bills with observations like that in the shotgun press.

Thank you for your attention, 

Jezek

Note: another set of experiments with the same outcomes but a different experimental question is described on this report:

http://www.claytargettesting.com/Bore_Diameter/Bore_Diameter.pdf

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Seems as tho choke is really not of any consequence to me.  I've noted over the years that I consistently shoot 100% with every target that I hit breaking.

 

[Bradley Clements]

This was relevant to me as my chokes that came with my gun were not a good fit - not dangerous but not like a glove.

This was exactly the position I was in, my half choke gave a little resistance when sliding in and out. As I wanted 2 half chokes, I didn't know whether to buy 2 GMK or 2 aftermarket chokes.