Cartridge velocities

[LancsLad]

Hi all,

Found an an interesting thread on Pigeon Watch where a guy has tested a lot of cartridges for their velocities through a speed trap. From what I understand he shoots 3 and works out the average. The list is plastic wad only apparently. Clay loads start about half way down with 21g.

Pigeon watch thread here

 

[Will Hewland]

Quite a good extensive test to show that there isn't much difference really. Most are very similar with only about 15% difference between the extremes. I believe that tests show that this diminishes down range, because the extra speed causes more wind resistance. 15% may seem a decent amount but as shot is massively faster than clays, please don't anybody think that there is 15% difference in lead on a crosser. It's a fraction of that. (I seem to remember working it out and it makes about 4" difference at 40 yards on a 30mph clay, but don't quote me).  I know some love this speed thing but I personally find it just about irrelevant. 

 

[Bebo]

Interesting.  I tend to use Power Blues, Power Reds and Hull Comp X.  I expected the Comp X to be slow, but I'm surprised the Power Blues are that much slower than the Power Reds.

 

[salop sniper]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Can anyone actually perceive the velocity difference in cartridges? I cant. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Felt recoil I can perceive at times but not velocity unless its subsonic cartridges which yes I can tell the difference with![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I was really surprised watching Mark Winser when he won the Landrover opt to have the last two cartridges as white gold instead of the black gold because of the velocity difference.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Am also curious what difference 20-50 fps make with cartridges and lead in the real world. It’s just got me thinking about when I go from clay cartridges on the clay ground to game cartridges out in the field. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]My clay cartridges are Gambore Evo`s (1420 fps) and Velocities (1400 fps or the new 1420 fps), My game cartridges being: LE Supreme Game (1400 fps). I haven’t been able to tell the difference in velocity between clay and game cartridges. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]So can some people tell the difference genuinely or is it just psychological? [/SIZE]

 

[Ducky]

Interesting chart, I'm currently trying some Black Golds which are supposed to be 1500fps!  I don't like them though, much harder recoil kick than my Gamebore Evo's were, so I'm looking forward to running out of them so I can go back to the Evos! .

 

[Gavin]

I think make winser wanted the two white gold as a mental note to him self not to over lead them 

 

[jwpzx9r]

My take on that list is that the really top quality clay cartridges are made to be shootable and probably pattern well rather than have a high velocity although as has been said there is not a huge difference in velocity. What is really interesting, to me at least, is that the slowest clay cartridge on that is the best cartridge I have ever shot!

So as a matter of interest  today at Capvern shooting UT I was using Clever T2 trap 24g in the first tube and T2 28g in the second.... I am think of moving over to Clever 24g cartridges full stop absolutely superb results and soft as a feather down  brilliant cartridges for the cost.

Am also curious what difference 20-50 fps make with cartridges and lead in the real world.

You would have to be a fantastic shot to see any difference at all. So my answer in the real world, which we are all in by the way, none that anybody but the very best shots on the planet could detect .. even if they could!

 

[MJJ]

The tests done with all them cartridges only have a bearing on the gun he used and nothing else.

 

[DavidJ]

The tests done with all them cartridges only have a bearing on the gun he used and nothing else.

Are you saying velocity changes depending on the gun you use?

 

[Darkside]

Yes

 

[Finners]

Are you saying velocity changes depending on the gun you use?

Yeah, and my gun's faster than yours nerr nerr :lol:

(Sorry I couldn't resist)

 

[jwpzx9r]

The tests done with all them cartridges only have a bearing on the gun he used and nothing else.

Yes I could agree with that. If you look at the way some gun makers are boring their guns they are 11 bore until they are choked so pressures attained will be different. The manufacturers of cartridges have to test to a standard which gives you an idea of the velocity but if your gun does not meet the spec they use I agree it will change in your gun. I think the velocity figures published are less important than most people think. As to the test data this man has produced yes it will be specific to his gun ... but the trend will be similar. In other words a cartridge that shows a high velocity compared to another with show that in all guns... although the actual figure obtained may be very different.

 

[Hamster]

 yes it will be specific to his gun ... but the trend will be similar. In other words a cartridge that shows a high velocity compared to another with show that in all guns... although the actual figure obtained may be very different.

Correct - it's immaterial that a different gun may or may not have produced 20 fps plus or minus variation across the board, it's the trend that matters. There are basically three barrel lengths anyway (28/30/32) and I bet the difference is miniscule. 

I'm not even convinced these results are actually true to life accurate since we don't know if he fired enough representative shots, whether his equipment is sophisticated enough or whether he fired them all in identical temperatures/air densities or whether they were carried under lab conditions BUT the trend is still useful. 

 

[MJJ]

Just to add to this

1) I believe he is using an auto for the tests - Hence, the tests are only useful to his gun. I may be wrong?

2) Is he using a proper chrono designed for shotgun cartridges? Most are only useful for solid shot, ie Rifle/airgun.  The reason i bring this up is that he had difficulty in getting readings for certain carts used. I think the only readings he attained was from the wad passing over the chrono. Again i could be wrong?

Would like to know other peoples views on this 

 

[westley]

An auto you say, AH, well therein lies the problem. We all know that the velocity of ANY cartridge is reduced, due to the mechanism of a gas operated auto. Ask any Trappie, he will be able to tell you what cartridges are being used by anyone shooting an auto at Trap. If they are HV's and the user is around 5' 10" tall, the empty case goes past the tip of his neighbours nose. If the cartridge is of the slower variety, then it will pass the tip of his chin. Of course if a fibre wadded cartridge is being used, then it be around left nipple height, but the next 3 shooters in the line will all look as though they have just come from a wedding, due to the confetti effect. This is a known contributory factor in the totally unjustified prejudice against the semi auto being used for Trap shooting. I feel sure that the 3 Trap shooters who subscribe to this Forum will be along soon, to verify this.

Just as a point of interest, has anyone tried to catch up with the shot, after the gun was fired ?

 

[jwpzx9r]

My final the reputable companies that quote their cartridge velocities use the correct equipment for the job why test again?... don't we believe them? And is a difference of say +/- 50 fps really something that we should be worrying about.

 

[chippy]

I've read this with interest. So now as well as four different shot sizes I will now carry three different speed cartridges. A slow one for close stuff and incomers a mid speed one for medium distance crossers and a fast one for long stuff. I will be able to shoot everything with the same lead.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

The tests done with all them cartridges only have a bearing on the gun he used and nothing else.

Simply not true.  Barrel length has an effect but is is near insignificant.  Looks like variation in your carts is way more than different length barres.  Speed per se  as well has no effect on patterns.  As speed increases the choke effect for a particular choke will change some as in high speed steel only needs IC to make full patterns.  And the old saw about over-choking blowing patterns is BS too.  Neil Winston showed that tighter chokes only increased center density up to the point where it just didn't get any different.

Seems like everyone wants there to be some dark secrets about shotguns.  It really seems that the situation is just that there is and accumulated wealth of Hogwarts physics and bonehead analogies.  C'mon folks, it's just a shotgun

 

[Geordieboy]

Ha Ha!  Great topic on Pigeon forums!  It confirms what I already believed in anyway!  With Kent Velocities being 100fps faster than the top shell Black Golds........its all about how the shell patterns in your own particular gun.  I used to shoot Fiocchi Golden trap as they 'dust' more clays for me in my gun (Mk38 Trap with teagues).  But being the wrong side of £200 per thousand, I dropped down to Fiocchi Officials or 4Hv's when price allows.  I like 7 shot as it has a higher energy retention over long range and I like the breaks I get with the bigger balls!  It is simple really.  Find a shell that suits your shooting style and you can buy consistently within your price range and then its all up to the big (or little) fleshy thing at the other end of the gun to do the rest!

I've read this with interest. So now as well as four different shot sizes I will now carry three different speed cartridges. A slow one for close stuff and incomers a mid speed one for medium distance crossers and a fast one for long stuff. I will be able to shoot everything with the same lead.

For what it is worth.......I shoot 1 shell for 100 birders (Fiocchi 4Hv's in uk 7's) and TT2's for my local club ground (Barby Sporting).  Too many shells is too much to think about for me personally.  I always have in 1/2-3/4 chokes in my gun, but if a target is on my barrels or within 15yds, I drop in my quarter choke.  Simple for me.  Same lead judgement no matter the cartridge or choke.