Cheap and cheerful cartridges

[balltrap]

I don't know much about the Trap disciplines but the most common DTL are certainly closish compared to some ESP targets. A quick google revealed that OT clays are set to travel 76 meters and given that the experts invariably shoot fairly fast then it's certainly reasonable to assume they're not routinely being taken at 50 meters. 




 

DTL is a trap discipline on its own, ABT,UT,OT is a total different kettle of fish the second shot can be 50 meters plus for some so would your budget shells be up for it on an  edge on target

 

[Sian]

DTL is a trap discipline on its own, ABT,UT,OT is a total different kettle of fish the second shot can be 50 meters plus for some so would your budget shells be up for it on an  edge on target

When I have had a go at OT, ABT and UT just really to be a person on the line if Tony wants to have a go because he likes all disciplines, he uses the TT and is very successful and I don't get that many I think 15 has been my best as I often struggle with orange and of course have no real form as I am not an OT, ABT or UT shooter - sorry I digress my point is I usually get them right out there at the very last bit of their range so yes they can be hit.  I know I don't do comps and I am not a serious trap shooter but the point is they get hit.  I miss because I'm not good at it.  I have buttoned for Tony on OT where he is unaware as I just keep going and he has hit 147/150.  Most on first shot and he is fairly quick but some on second shot out there.

 

[Hamster]

DTL is a trap discipline on its own, ABT,UT,OT is a total different kettle of fish the second shot can be 50 meters plus for some so would your budget shells be up for it on an  edge on target

Probably not, I personally believe higher antimony gives better breaks and I'm also convinced that at those ranges a cartridge that starts out a bit brisker is likely to be carrying more kinetic energy to matter. I have read articles where the writer implies that the difference in velocity downrange between fast and slowish shells is immaterial because they somehow seem to catch up with one another  :huh: , I don't believe that to be the case in practice.  

In all fairness though it's DTL which these soft, mainly first barrel loads are aimed at, the chances are the components and velocities for shells intended for the more demanding Trap disciplines are different which is what I am saying anyway. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

I don't know much about the Trap disciplines but the most common DTL are certainly closish compared to some ESP targets. A quick google revealed that OT clays are set to travel 76 meters and given that the experts invariably shoot fairly fast then it's certainly reasonable to assume they're not routinely being taken at 50 meters. 

To be honest I would say an accomplished OT shooter would not be making his second barrel shot at 50m unless he was doing some trick shots. A target at 50m is already falling to the ground and completely upsets the natural method of shooting a rising target. I have seen shooters who have been sound asleep when the called the target and it was at a long distance for the first barrel but it is not the norm nor what you want. An Olympic trap target travels at approx. 30m/s you are set to shoot rising targets and normally the first shot would be made at about  0.5 of a second of the targets travel. So it is evident that a reasonable OT shot would be shooting his target after the first 15m or so of it travel on a straight away target that would mean a distance of 30m or about 33yds for the first shot.  Distance to the gun will be slightly different due to trajectories etc but prob 35yds as a good ave . Of course not all targets are straight away so that 0.5sec distance will vary for different angle/trajectory combinations. However I think you are right I do not think an OT shooter with a talent will be making too many shots at 50m targets... if he can help it  

" I have read articles where the write implies that the difference in velocity downrange between fast and slowish shells is immaterial because they somehow seem to catch up with one another  :huh: , I don't believe that to be the case in practice"

It is not implied it is a fact that a faster moving object at std temp and pressure will decelerate at a greater rate than the same object moving at a lower initial velocity. The rate of resistance through the air is squared with velocity all other things being equal ie shot diameter. What this means for pieces of shot 2.4mm in diameter... I have no idea but the theory says is loses its velocity quicker  if it starts with a higher initial velocity.

 

[Hamster]

*** is not implied it is a fact that a faster moving object at std temp and pressure will decelerate at a greater rate than the same object moving at a lower initial velocity. The rate of resistance through the air is squared with velocity all other things being equal ie shot diameter. What this means for pieces of shot 2.4mm in diameter... I have no idea but the theory says is loses its velocity quicker  if it starts with a higher initial velocity.

I have no quarrel with the physics, "starts faster decelerates at a faster pace relative to slower velocities" BUT the bit that matters is you will still have a higher velocity at range, the difference won't be the 200 fps or whatever it started out with but it'll be enough to matter as far as the kinetic energy is concerned. 

 

[Mutley]

Just for info.

all my shell testing over the years was done on the late Bob Braithwaites ball trap layout throwing 80+m targets,

Bob's favourite shell in the early 90's which I supplied him after winchester dried up, was the express HV little 67mm low brass shell, smooth, not quick despite the name, but killed anything he shot at...

And an old caravan in the yard for pattern testing........

Pattern kills the target not speed, a fast shell does not hold as dense a pattern as a slower one at distance.

An average OT target is shot at 30m for first shot unless angled, that can add as much as 1/2 a second on to the time the shot is taken, the second barrel average is 35-45m, anything that is killed after that distance is a mix of skill and luck.

A shell that is new to the UK and in the right price bracket is the Pegoraro, brought in by Tom at Continental shooting supplies looking forward to trying them, will put some through the chrono and see what they are like on the pattern plate at different distances.

 

[ips]

my head hurts, I am never getting into cartridge discussions ever again.

my closing statement on the matter is what I said at the beginning. Use the best you can afford / justify.

 

[Darkside]

Just for info.

all my shell testing over the years was done on the late Bob Braithwaites ball trap layout throwing 80+m targets,

Bob's favourite shell in the early 90's which I supplied him after winchester dried up, was the express HV little 67mm low brass shell, smooth, not quick despite the name, but killed anything he shot at...

And an old caravan in the yard for pattern testing........

Pattern kills the target not speed, a fast shell does not hold as dense a pattern as a slower one at distance.

An average OT target is shot at 30m for first shot unless angled, that can add as much as 1/2 a second on to the time the shot is taken, the second barrel average is 35-45m, anything that is killed after that distance is a mix of skill and luck.

A shell that is new to the UK and in the right price bracket is the Pegoraro, brought in by Tom at Continental shooting supplies looking forward to trying them, will put some through the chrono and see what they are like on the pattern plate at different distances.

Mutley, I've shot 750 Pegoraro Speed 28g 8's now, shot 25 DTL yesterday from a FITASC 'below the line' mount, so first barrel kills were further out, second barrel kills were on the drop. Breaks were really good using 3/8 1/2 Briley. Shot 10 at the end on the drop, to practice shooting dropping going away clays, good breaks...but, Corsivia clays do break well.

 

[jwpzx9r]

I have no quarrel with the physics, "starts faster decelerates at a faster pace relative to slower velocities" BUT the bit that matters is you will still have a higher velocity at range, the difference won't be the 200 fps or whatever it started out with but it'll be enough to matter as far as the kinetic energy is concerned. 

Not really making the case for parity in velocity Hammy just stating that what you said is in part true. I did say I had no idea what the effect would be on a 2.4mm lead pellet.

One very important factor that not many people think about when they are talking about a top level cartridge is what the cartridge is designed to do and to whom the benefits of the design will apply.

For example Clevers top trap cartridges are designed to be hard hitting and hold a tight pattern at 35m. To do that the have hardened the shot and made it 3% more dense than a standard cartridge. These are attributes that may very well work against the average shooter not for! You have three 3% less projectiles in the load and it is occupying less area... in short you have to be a more accurate shooter to make this load work for you.

 

[balltrap]

When I have had a go at OT, ABT and UT just really to be a person on the line if Tony wants to have a go because he likes all disciplines, he uses the TT and is very successful and I don't get that many I think 15 has been my best as I often struggle with orange and of course have no real form as I am not an OT, ABT or UT shooter - sorry I digress my point is I usually get them right out there at the very last bit of their range so yes they can be hit.  I know I don't do comps and I am not a serious trap shooter but the point is they get hit.  I miss because I'm not good at it.  I have buttoned for Tony on OT where he is unaware as I just keep going and he has hit 147/150.  Most on first shot and he is fairly quick but some on second shot out there.




 

Sian...................you cannot button on OT ? its computerized and hitting 147 /150 would put you in a world class league, are you sure your not getting mixed up with DTL

 

[Sian]

Sian...................you cannot button on OT ? its computerized and hitting 147 /150 would put you in a world class league, are you sure your not getting mixed up with DTL

I wasn't buttoning only turning it back on no birds because the system did not reset itself - pressing the reset button I was supposed to keep and eye on how many he was shooting and I just let him go on,  and yes I know the difference between the disciplines and on my child's life that was his score.  He was completely zoned in to what he was doing.  I actually love DTL for restoring calm to my crazy world.  That is my zone out time.

you know if he were pain free of his arthritis, carpel tunnel in both hands to the extreme and isn't knackered, the backgrounds are good and the light is good he is one hell of an all round shooter.  Time is not on his side anymore but he happily shoots for the fun of it.  I have become a monster always wanting to win but he couldn't care less as long as he does his best.

 

[balltrap]

I wasn't buttoning only turning it back on no birds because the system did not reset itself - pressing the reset button I was supposed to keep and eye on how many he was shooting and I just let him go on,  and yes I know the difference between the disciplines and on my child's life that was his score.  He was completely zoned in to what he was doing.  I actually love DTL for restoring calm to my crazy world.  That is my zone out time.




 

In that case its a very well done :wink:

 

[Sian]

In that case its a very well done :wink:

I'm serious if he were younger by 20 years or so and had dedicated himself to the fast trap disciplines you would have seen his name in lights I am sure of it.  Now all shooting is fun to him with the exception of helice simply because not enough targets and it's costly but he loves all disciplines.  I would love him to see Ed Lyons because his eyesight can be extremely bad if he is knackered which is a lot of the time.  He shoots blurs most of the time.   That was a really uplifting day for him and I'm in no way suggesting he could repeat it all the time, especially now.

 

[Rupert]

I like red ones and janice like the blue ones

 

[jwpzx9r]

I wasn't buttoning only turning it back on no birds because the system did not reset itself - pressing the reset button I was supposed to keep and eye on how many he was shooting and I just let him go on,  and yes I know the difference between the disciplines and on my child's life that was his score.  He was completely zoned in to what he was doing.  I actually love DTL for restoring calm to my crazy world.  That is my zone out time.

you know if he were pain free of his arthritis, carpel tunnel in both hands to the extreme and isn't knackered, the backgrounds are good and the light is good he is one hell of an all round shooter.  Time is not on his side anymore but he happily shoots for the fun of it.  I have become a monster always wanting to win but he couldn't care less as long as he does his best.

You either have or you don't Sian sounds like Tony had/has it . I personally would really like to know why someone would say... but... but that's not possible? Man sees target man shoots target shocker... with clear mind and no preconceived ideas well done him!

 

[Sian]

You either have or you don't Sian sounds like Tony had/has it . I personally would really like to know why someone would say... but... but that's not possible? Man sees target man shoots target shocker... with clear mind and no preconceived ideas well done him!

I would say it is a case of had now.  

 

[Wonko the Sane]

For example Clevers top trap cartridges are designed to be hard hitting and hold a tight pattern at 35m. To do that the have hardened the shot and made it 3% more dense than a standard cartridge. These are attributes that may very well work against the average shooter not for! You have three 3% less projectiles in the load and it is occupying less area... in short you have to be a more accurate shooter to make this load work for you.

It would be fascinating to know how that was done since all of the elements that serve to harden lead are lighter than lead.  For the same diameter pellet that would make for a lesser density and therefore more pellets/weight.  When I was reloading and anal about the weight so as to max the load I always had to enlarge the shot bushing to accommodate the lighter magnum-hard-whatever weight/pellet.  That was typically something in the 4-5% antimony range here for the US made shot.

 

[Angelfire]

On my return to the sport after been away for a score of years I purchased some whiz bangs at £130 a thou. Shot 50 ABT with a Remmy 1100 and was rather chuffed with 39, I think was my score.

Here is the rub, I had some balls of dust, some decent breaks, some chips and plenty of misses. Were the chips and misses due to the cheap shells or the thing between my ears. I would love to say, of course the cheap shells were to blame, bloody rubbish things. But I would be fibbing, all shots were the same noise, all shots had the same recoil, no doubt in my mind the grey matter between my lugs was to blame. That's my take on it anyway, shooter error.

 

[jwpzx9r]

It would be fascinating to know how that was done since all of the elements that serve to harden lead are lighter than lead.  For the same diameter pellet that would make for a lesser density and therefore more pellets/weight.  When I was reloading and anal about the weight so as to max the load I always had to enlarge the shot bushing to accommodate the lighter magnum-hard-whatever weight/pellet.  That was typically something in the 4-5% antimony range here for the US made shot.

Join the club on that one Charlie I have the complete specific gravity chart for lead antimony alloys and 6% antimony lead alloy has a specific gravity 4.5% less that lead ! But the Clever website states that there carbon/quartz shot is 3% harder and heavier than their standard shot. Interestingly just 2% antimony doubles the hardness of shot and there after you are chasing your tail a bit as the curve flattens out. The secret is in the carbon/quartz shot what ever that process entails could be that it reduces the crystal boundary space increasing the sg that way . I worked in metallurgy for a while and we cast spheroidal graphite iron which had a much improved hardness over standard white cast iron. Of course it could be Clever sensationalising their shells read about the T4 revolution here ! http://www.clevervr.com/en/competition-loads/t4-pro-extra-evo

 

[Wonko the Sane]

John - 

Sounds about right.  Hard shot out of a chilled shot bush in four different weights that I checked all were about 4% light

I really don't care about Clever to be quite honest.  Spherical graphite making for harder iron sounds perfectly reasonable.  The common "flake" form would have a much larger surface area or volume/weight and reduce the density of the iron and likely hardness.  But that is just intuitive cuz I ain't no metal guy for sure and some alloys are strange.