Clay Pigeon Shooting Association

[NickF]

Thank you Nick for your replies, it is interesting to note the comments on this forum .

I stated my opinion and my reasons . It is amazing how in a debate that facts can become distorted in favour of an argument.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate for you to have mentioned that at The West Midlands Regional AGM , when Terry Bobbett raised this issue and canvassed the opinion of members present , there were only two members against the change , but the majority either could not be bothered or happy for you to do what you want.

In my time as a CPSA member I have always complained about membership funds being wasted on trivia and litigation. 

Once we all realise that money and assets belong to the membership and spend it wisely maybe , just maybe we can move forward and promote our sport..

Missing the point...i think not i suggested a way to be sure of the members opinion on the matter at very little cost to ourselves.

The majority of members never have any contact with their County nevermind Regional committees but as an association they should still be consulted on it and the only way for this would be a poll,online being the cheapest option.

Your belief that those at the top should be the only people asked about such a massive decision with far reaching consequences does not surprise me.

In the same vein as the vaunted live scoring system which turns out to  be a glorified spreadsheet at ridiculous cost and still not implemented...how many members actually had any choice in that.

The cost to the masses should be a major consideration.

Peter, I agree with you about quoting the facts, that's why I commented that it wasn't a case of members not being bothered or letting 'us' do what we want. It was members raising the issue initially and the Chairman taking a straw poll of members at a meeting, the vast majority of whom felt that Target would be better. As I said earlier, there are no 'moves afoot from HQ'; this was just an opportunity to gauge the feeling of a group of members on a topical issue. As Charles has pointed out, the implications would be far reaching.

Mark, your statement about 'my belief' doesn't hold water - I've neither said nor implied that. Any potential change to our constitution would need members' support so it goes without saying that consultation would have to happen first. But the key point is there is no proposal anyway, just a question at a committee meeting in response to a matter raised by some members. I'm sorry it was asked! As for your comment on a live scoring system - you've definitely got your wires crossed on that.

 

[Darkside]

As a recent returnee to the world of clay pigeon shooting, after a 35 year gap, I have to say I’ve read this thread with increasing dismay.  Back in the day I was a CPSA member, but was like most members, I suspect, uninvolved in the machinations of how the association was run.  More recently I’ve been a BASC member and, whilst not being involved in any way, I have taken an active interest in how the association is run and the work it does on behalf of members.  I sense no overt discord in the BASC, although I expect, no doubt, some are not happy.

I shoot clays mainly just for enjoyment, rather than wanting to be particularly competitive.  Nonetheless I had intended to join the CPSA and enter a few competitions, but reading this thread and a few others recently, I wonder if I really want to now.  Someone please put a positive spin in favour of the CPSA – or are the majority of members fed up with the organisation?

The entries at shoots keep getting bigger and bigger...I'd say there is plenty of positivity in the sport!!!

 

[Salopian]

Darkside ,

 A very good point , and well made.

Nick Fellows did say that membership is up and there is a lot of interest being shown.

 

[schmokinn]

"As for your comment on a live scoring system - you've definitely got your wires crossed on that." not the way i remember the telephone conversation going but then again you were not very forthcoming with any information.

So as the CPSA accounts/financial statement are not published online any more...got to ask why as they were until you became secretary? And i cannot find the issue of pull containing them.

Please remind us what was the 50,000 pounds spent on?

 

[Angelfire]

I've mixed feelings about this.

I don't think the association should be spending time discussing a name change or pouring members money into another vote. That said, a change from 'Pigeon' to 'Target' is long overdue. It will better reflect what we do and will bring us into line with most other national associations.

It's a shame the associations constitution won't just allow the board to change it

I have mixed feelings over your post Jan. The start is ok, the middle bit is so so, the last part is where I would take issue. We the members cannot allow the Directors carte blanche. There has to be checks and balances as we are an Association run for the benefit of the members, not the Directors.

As for the name change I voted to retain CP over CT last time. If it is pursued to have a name change ballot again, I would require info from HQ over the why's and wherefores  of change and the FULL cost of change as I think it may prove very expensive. That done I would consider the proposed change of name, and cast my vote accordingly. As a long standing Life Member I would want the CPSA to benefit from any change of name.

 

[ehb102]

 We the members cannot allow the Directors carte blanche. There has to be checks and balances as we are an Association run for the benefit of the members, not the Directors.

That's not what the the directors sign up to though is it? They sign to do their best for CPSA the entity, not the members. Important difference. 

 

[Angelfire]

That's not what the the directors sign up to though is it? They sign to do their best for CPSA the entity, not the members. Important difference. 

The Members ARE the CPSA, no members no CPSA. Or have I missed something here?.

 

[ehb102]

The Members ARE the CPSA, no members no CPSA. Or have I missed something here?.

Noooo... The CPSA as a legal entity has assets and financial responsibilities. It would have to be utterly zero members to make that true. The responsibility of the directors is to the entity CPSA. They may feel that that is best served by making a huge profit. *Shrug* It's all down to what is in the paperwork.

One of the many directors reading this must feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[schmokinn]

Noooo... The CPSA as a legal entity has assets and financial responsibilities. It would have to be utterly zero members to make that true. The responsibility of the directors is to the entity CPSA. They may feel that that is best served by making a huge profit. *Shrug* It's all down to what is in the paperwork.

One of the many directors reading this must feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

This is totally true unfortunately..in a recently advertised post it actually stated this.

Their aim is to have 3/4 of a million in ready cash...they have just over half a million.

Should imagine that it started when they became a LTD company approx 20 years ago i believe,before i joined and i bet the majority do not realise.

This is why they do pretty much nothing at county level as we have to self finance and unbelievably we have to pay them for some of their services.

I think something should be done to get it back under the members control for the good of the members.

I must add that some of the staff can be more than helpful but their probably not on the BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

 

[westley]

That's me, I'm OUT  !

 

[ips]

I would prefer target to bird, cos that's what it is.

just saying

 

[Angelfire]

So what would happen if the Membership dropped like a stone, from 25k to 10k say. What would the Directors be capable of doing in if this scenario ever occured. I find it hard to understand. Likewise if the Membership sort of don't count, what's the point of them travelling all over the Country to the AGM's (only a few go anyway) might as well leave it to the Directors to take all the decisions. 

I thought one of reasons the CPSA went Ltd was to protect said Directors from having any responsibility if the Association went bust and they were chased for serious amounts of brass.

 

[Jan Powell]

Just get on with changing the name. In case you all hadn't noticed, the sport is fighting a constant battle to survive. Grounds are closing for all sorts of reasons, fuel prices and entry fees are on the rise and the cost of cartridges is increasing year on year with no prospect of a reduction. 

Let's focus on the important issues that affect our sport and not spend time squabbling over an issue that's really not important.

 

[Salopian]

Jan,

 So what would changing the name do to improve the situation you have mentioned?

Nothing apart from spend money.

 

[cockney21]

I'm with Jan on this one, if it improved the image of shooting by even the smallest amount it would be a step in the right direction. What we forget is that guns do have a negative image at the moment amongst those who don't shoot, which is like it or loathe is most of the population!

If the CPSA has one weak spot it's the fact that it seems more geared to keeping the moaning members at bay rather than open the sport to new young members who are the future. As mentioned look at the average of people at shoots and you might realise that when in a few years time the current crop of old gits give up there won't be anyone to replace them....And all we moan about is a possible name change!

 

[Jan Powell]

As I've already made clear, I think the name should change. It'll benefit the sport in the long run and better reflect what we do. I just want the governing body to get on with doing it, just like the Welsh and Scottish associations have. 

I don't want hours of debate, members votes or more money spent. The sport has far more pressing concerns than this.

 

[Paul120]

I'm with Jan on this one, if it improved the image of shooting by even the smallest amount it would be a step in the right direction. What we forget is that guns do have a negative image at the moment amongst those who don't shoot, which is like it or loathe is most of the population!

If the CPSA has one weak spot it's the fact that it seems more geared to keeping the moaning members at bay rather than open the sport to new young members who are the future. As mentioned look at the average of people at shoots and you might realise that when in a few years time the current crop of old gits give up there won't be anyone to replace them....And all we moan about is a possible name change!

The lack of people in their early 20's to early to mid 30's is a worry. However I suspect that it is a result of the cost and disposable income. It was the case when I was in my early to Mid 20's

Current increases in prices are not helping especially as most, especially those currently in that age group are seeing income drop in real terms. Many with student loans and high cost of housing etc that most of us were fortunate to avoid. 

There should always be a good crop of midlife crisis cases to keep the numbers up.   

 

[Nimbusgb]

The lack of people in their early 20's to early to mid 30's is a worry. However I suspect that it is a result of the cost and disposable income. It was the case when I was in my early to Mid 20's

Current increases in prices are not helping especially as most, especially tjose currently in that age group are seeing income drop in real terms. Many with stident loans and high cost of housing etc that most of us were fortunate to avoid. 

There should always be a good crop of mislife crisis cases to keep the numbers up.   

An age old refrain! Gliding, flying, sailing all fighting the same battles. Disposable income and time.

 

[schmokinn]

Just get on with changing the name. In case you all hadn't noticed, the sport is fighting a constant battle to survive. Grounds are closing for all sorts of reasons, fuel prices and entry fees are on the rise and the cost of cartridges is increasing year on year with no prospect of a reduction. 

Let's focus on the important issues that affect our sport and not spend time squabbling over an issue that's really not important.

As I've already made clear, I think the name should change. It'll benefit the sport in the long run and better reflect what we do. I just want the governing body to get on with doing it, just like the Welsh and Scottish associations have. 

I don't want hours of debate, members votes or more money spent. The sport has far more pressing concerns than this.

It may not be important to you but it is to many others and they have as members the right to vote as they please.

An interenet voted would be virtually cost free.

Not wasting money...the whole rebranding issue would cost the organisation a fortune,individual members also have costs replacing merchandise which they may have treasured for years or literally bought in the last couple of months,grounds and schools having to replace signage,banners and media,the list goes on.

You may not worry about the cost to you but the cost to others and their views must be considered.

 

[Salopian]

Wasting money , time and resources is exactly my point.

Jan or anyone else have not given us a credible reason to change the name.

We also need to realise that historically we never attract members until such time that they have disposable income to fund a family hobby.

How many of you know brilliant youngsters that are funded by parents , but as soon as they go to Uni , discover beer and girls, are lost to the sport until hopefully their middle age when life is settled and they can afford it .

The way forward to increase membership is to make it affordable for families & friends .

The interclub rivalry is a very good example and the disabled shooters group.

Spend funds on promoting shooting not name changing and pandering to a disinterested public.

What good would changing the name actually do? Will people come rushing to join?