Concentration

[MartynB]

Lloyd , one thing to think about with “ Chuck it and chance “ is , “what is your plan for ...” 

a) a follow up second barrel shot  on  missed targets where you have full use of the gun 

b ) arriving at the  pick up point for the second shot in a pair of clays .

If you go to any  competitive shoot , even a decent club shoot  , you will get pairs on report , and simultaneous pairs  even trailing pairs If you shoot at these unplanned with gun-speed alone you might find your muzzles are in absolutely the wrong place for the second shot .  

Go onto a skeet layout on station 4 get someone to give you high and low on report ,  and high and low as a pair and  high / high  or Low/Low on report  etc . you’ll see what I mean . 

Ps I’m not a competition shooter anymore ,(  I was never  brilliant anyway. )  ,  I just shoot club , social, and game in my retirement  but I’ve had first class tuition and shot alongside some truely class shooters . The class guys all have a system , 

Will , A bit off topic , but I understand that E.J. Churchill are opening a ground in North Yorkshire , I believe that they are taking over the operation of  the Warren Gill shooting school . We might see you driving a bit further North than your proposed excursions to  Nottingham then ? 

 

[El Spavo]

And just to make a dangerous supposition in your case (but it is the case often), newbies can do well with a sudden “instinctive” shot, but for one reason only: They make a rush at the target which puts some lead on, whereas they are usually behind (because it’s not natural to shoot ahead of a target at first). As I say, I need to see you to know.

Yeah, heard this for newbies too. Basically the logic made sense to me that at first you hit a lot on instinct, but with more difficult targets that instinct needs to turn into a pattern which is based on knowledge and experience otherwise one can quickly become disheartened because that initial success isn't reoccurring but one doesn't know why. If that makes sense?

Personally, Been shooting just over a year and I think I'm just past that bit and now into the learning, processing, and eventually understanding phase, and now it's starting to get tricky because I'm trying to learn as much as I can with different targets but being more like a machine with a small percentage of instinct for that plan b which Will mentioned. The tought targets definitely do need a plan as I can account for at Bisley last week... despite an 82, a long distance one I simply couldn't find because I didn't have the experience to judge it correctly in the 4 attempts I was givne to score.

And on the subject of not wondering how you can have a hold/pickup point without initially having a kill point rings true to me too, so I can see where Johnny Engliish is coming from on that. I'm trying to work through it, and know it's not the ideal, but I still look at things in terms of knowing where I can first see it, and then I tend to base where I'm going to kill it on how much I can see to give me enough distance to follow it until I'm comfortable to hit it. I have a kill point roughly, but it'll be nowhere near as precise as 95% of our more regular contributors on here, and that's where I need to switch a little from that instinctive side more. The fact I know about it though helps me realise I have to work out HOW to pinpoint that issue, and I WILL eventually get there, but at the moment I think I may have a kill point of an area of a few metres whereas the more professional/experienced may well get that down to an exact picture in their mind of the precise moment to pull the clay. It's all fun in the meantime, and an interesting learning curve.

 

[chippy]

For example when watching people shoot it soon becomes apparent that the "average" ones lack a fixed routine. I would go as far as saying that the difference between an A class lifetime "journeyman" and one in AA is not defined in shooting skill per se but the ability to set, reset and repeat without fluctuations in tempo. 

As an A class journeyman  of 13 years. I must be the exception to the rule. As when I find a target I normally keep on it but if I don't find it 1st or 2nd shot I never find it.

 

[El Spavo]

Have a look here for some ideas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9aw5rT040

Thanks for this. May not work for all, may not be definitive, but as I currently couldn't really visualise a competent way of approaching the stand despite hearing numerous times is vitally important, it's certainly somewhere for me to springboard from if not accept as a finite routine.

 

[DavidJ]

You have to visualise the whole thing first. So then you do have a kill point, which together with careful watching of the clays gives you hold point. And you don’t shoot it earlier or later than your plan. Unless you need to try a plan B

Agreed but Johnny English stated he spent to much time working out his hold point rather then the kill point. I watch the clay and establish where I see it first and not just the rough area, I'm looking for an exact point I can look back to every time. I then decide where I'm going to break the clay. Only after that do I go for a hold point and for that I keep it simple by going 50% between the first two and on or close to the line of the clay. 

I then decide the method I'm going to use and from the speed/size of the clay decide what lead I think I need to apply using gap descriptions of how I see space. If the lead is small I'll usually say something like "two clays" to my self, if the lead is bigger then I'll probably say "two feet" but I'm not even sure if that is anything like two feet in reality, it's just a label I use for a gap size that I have become accustomed to.  

 

[chippy]

I really don't get this emphasis on hold and kill points. Yes you need to be roughly in the right place but they are not going to put the correct lead on the clay.

 

[Will Hewland]

I really don't get this emphasis on hold and kill points. Yes you need to be roughly in the right place but they are not going to put the correct lead on the clay.

Hmm.. one helps the other though.. proved that well at two shoots this week. Hold point becomes more critical due to the level of time (or lack thereof) available. On a big long lazy crosser it’s unimportant.

 

[Sian]

I’m hopeless, hapless and helpless.  I don’t concentrate, something always distracts me.  Too much waiting, watching is fatal for me. I never step in and think about hold points.  I can go in kill a stonker and then I think f**k how did that happen then I think and then it goes wrong.  People have plans I rarely have a plan.  I once shot a squadded shoot where after the first two stands I did not look at any of the presentations just stepped in and shot (I know barmy but the shooter in front of me put me off) and I actually shot really well .  One day I’ll be a grown up shooter.

 

[Lloyd]

I’m hopeless, hapless and helpless.  I don’t concentrate, something always distracts me.  Too much waiting, watching is fatal for me. I never step in and think about hold points.  I can go in kill a stonker and then I think f**k how did that happen then I think and then it goes wrong.  People have plans I rarely have a plan.  I once shot a squadded shoot where after the first two stands I did not look at any of the presentations just stepped in and shot (I know barmy but the shooter in front of me put me off) and I actually shot really well .  One day I’ll be a grown up shooter.

Probably seems silly coming from a novice such as myself only having shot 300 clays in total to date, but that is exactly my experience thus far.

My tutor has been telling me he knows when I'm thinking and what, and he has always been correct! It's been the lazy teal, long slow crossers that I have missed. That's when we tried without seeing the presentation' (thanks, I didn't know that's what it was called). It worked a treat and I actually did my last 25 straight.

Doing three grounds on Tuesday. I've no idea what to expect but I know it's going to be fun  

 

[El Spavo]

Not quite sure how you can establish a hold point when you haven't determined a kill point! The same applies to lead, it's only the given lead at the kill point. Shoot it earlier or later and it's different.

It's worth laminating a list of bullet points for before and in the cage.

Have a look here for some ideas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9aw5rT040

Thanks for this. May not work for all, may not be definitive, but as I currently couldn't really visualise a competent way of approaching the stand despite hearing numerous times is vitally important, it's certainly somewhere for me to springboard from if not accept as a finite routine.

 
Okay, so can I have some thoughts from those in the know please...?

Went out this morning and tried to adhere/adopt to the concepts in Ben's video, which on the face of it seem completely logical (which I like things to be)... but even though I know it's a new thing to me, I found that where he's expecting people to take about 10ish seconds to follow this routine, there was so much to think about in terms of actually knowing what I'm doing before taking the shot that it was more like I was probably taking double that and it just ended up really stressing me out in general, a massive headf*ck! There were some other factors which may have played a part such as shooting solo so having to control the buttons on delay instead of just calling, but to me I reckon that I have a bit of a problem with other basic factors and wonder if it's just a lack of experience which is why I thought I'd ask you guys your opinions?

Don't always have the same kill point, it's general, and within a few metres every time probably, but it's as much as to how my gun moves and when it feels right to shoot as anything, so I don't know how big an area others are classing their kill point (feels like it's EXACTLY the same space every time which I don't think I can do yet)? I'm also finding that by the time I've worked out where I hold from... the stand is pretty much over and you move on! Not always, but again it's only a vague area. I really, really study the birds but that isn't necessarily a routine.

Beginners stuff or is there something I'm just not getting to take me to a more precise shooter?

Been sent one other routine which I'll try, but I've always had a problem with information overload, and that video in reality is too much, at least at the moment: too many variables of which I may well be woolly on more than one!  (Not the lead bit, but the other two, method & speed just blanked me... no idea what he meant by slow hands?!)

Just feels like the 82 the other week at Bisley was a bit of a con, like I did it but I could do it all again and shoot a lot less or a lot more, who knows?! And that annoys me.  :mda:

 

[Martinj]

Just feels like the 82 the other week at Bisley was a bit of a con, like I did it but I could do it all again and shoot a lot less or a lot more, who knows?! And that annoys me.  :mda:

Welcome to the world of clay shooting :smile:

FWIW My routine is to watch a few clays,

• be aware of where the traps are,
  
• know where the clays appear, say half way up the tree to the right,
  
• know the trajectory,
  
• prepare for the second clay
  
• know your pick up points and approximate kill points
  
• speed - are they fast - slow etc?
  
• range
  
• have an idea of lead
  

In my case, lead is measured in feet in front of the bird but during the moment muscle memory takes over and frequently is not as I first imagined.

Kill points can be flexible but important when you need to take it at a specific point in its path, say at a peak of a loop.

 

[El Spavo]

Ironically, except the pick up point kill point line which I do when I can work it out, I do all that, it's just that it feels in the moment instead of methodical.

Might not be exactly wrong but in someway from reading what others say, makes me feel like a bad or Ill focused/disciplined shooter cos there's no set pattern going into the stand 

 

[DavidJ]

You are never going to get down to 10 seconds at your 1st attempt. As a new shooter you need to build up to a routine.

For now I'd forget it and work on KP, HP, VP as these should be worked out before you go in the stand or if your 1st from your show pair.

I'd also suggest, if your out for practice to do this on single Clay's. Forget report pairs until you can apply the/a system to a single clay. 

Kill Points get picked from the cage or behind but when you are actually looking down the gun shooting the clay you will not see the same picture so it is feeling. Aim to try and stack your kills though as this ensures you will be repeating the same shot picture.

 

[El Spavo]

Fair one, thanks. Judging by the video, The 10 second thing was nailed first time by the bloke with Ben, but I guess you never know how things have been edited for effect. You'd like to think he's shot a kosher vid though and perhaps the guy does just nail it off the bat.

 

[Sian]

 
Just feels like the 82 the other week at Bisley was a bit of a con, like I did it but I could do it all again and shoot a lot less or a lot more, who knows?! And that annoys me.  :mda:

This is the only sentence that you need to actually worry about.  The expectation that because you managed to get 82 you have somehow got there and won't or can't go backwards.  No my friend you have not, there will be more good scores I hope but there are going to be some real humdingers as well because that is life as a "normal" shooter particularly as you are learning and will hopefully shoot many different grounds and try many presentations.  IMHO.   Good habits and getting "your" routine will come in time and overload will just end in frustration and therefore missing so relax a bit and take a few things to work on not everything.

 

[Martinj]

Ironically, except the pick up point kill point line which I do when I can work it out, I do all that, it's just that it feels in the moment instead of methodical.

Exactly, these things are just part of being aware of the whole scenario, you don't need a checklist it should be second nature. The more aware you are, the less surprises you get, with the result that you are a little bit closer to improving your score.

 

[Bebo]

This is the only sentence that you need to actually worry about.  The expectation that because you managed to get 82 you have somehow got there and won't or can't go backwards.  No my friend you have not, there will be more good scores I hope but there are going to be some real humdingers as well because that is life as a "normal" shooter particularly as you are learning and will hopefully shoot many different grounds and try many presentations.  IMHO.   Good habits and getting "your" routine will come in time and overload will just end in frustration and therefore missing so relax a bit and take a few things to work on not everything.

What she said.  Last weekend I went from an 83 and ladies win at an open shoot on Sunday to a 62 and worse Reg score in several months.  It happens.  Different targets, different conditions and different mindset every time make it unavoidable.

 

[El Spavo]

Yup, agreed, just would rather that 82 to not be completely pot luck and fluke as that obviously is a bit of a bummer. 

Was possibly just one of those good days, but just want to find out what works for me to make that score a more common occurrence like everyone else does.

The more you look into studying, the more head games it becomes... should have just left it being happy with hitting a few and not scoring! 

 

[MartynB]

When you are waiting to shoot with your mates El, or when you are practicing,  before you even load and  close the gun , do you track the clays that you will be shooting with your finger and say bang !  ?

Using  an arm and pointing with the forefinger ( on the hand that grips the fore-end NOT the trigger finger )  is a great way to get the trajectory and the  hold points  etc in your head before committing to gun and cartridge . 

If I’m first in the cage at a club shoot , and get to see a pair , I’ll always point the birds out  with my left hand 

It helps also in establishing if your stance is ok or you are going to run out of swing and give you a chance to move your feet  .  I find this technique quite natural as I shoot with an extended forefinger on the stock anyway. 

 

[El Spavo]

Not all the time, but seen others do that and can understand why. Think my stance is Okay, just minor adjustments elsewhere for accuracy, in my head that what it is anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting to jump from mid 60s average to 80 overnight, just would like to progress slowly but obviously forward with some system other, just not sure which will work for me. Very early doors though.

Mrs has not very secretively bought me a Chris batha book for my birthday so will be interesting to read.