English gun investment

[paul b]

Yesterday i went to the shooting show with a freind who has some money to invest and realy likes the idea of owning a nice english made shotgun.He didnt realise a lot of the so called english gun names were just getting guns made abroad with there names put on,until i pointed that out and got the sellers to back me up with the actual makers name of the gun they were selling.

So my question is,are these half bread guns a worthy investment or should he be looking at a proper english made shotgun to see his investment grow instead of shrink?

 

[Salopian]

Paul,

 I do not think that new guns are an investment at all. 

If you bought a new H&H , Purdey , Boss , B&E it would only appreciate at about the same rate as Currency over the years , but who then wants to pay that price for an old gun when they can buy new at possibly a discount for cash?

My Purdey has probably only appreciated at the rate of inflation since it was made .

New Guns & Old are purchases for pride of ownership or a tool to do a specific job.

Ceasar Guerini were exhibiting a new gun , fabulous presentation, equal to any High end Beretta, Blaser, Krieghoff , Perazzi but for less than £5K .

At the end of the day they are a tool.

 

[Cosmicblue]

It's tricky Paul, there is a correlation between value retention and desirability, those guns that have a big reputation like a Purdey or Holland & Holland are likely to retain their value slightly better because they are well known.   Go for say a Longhorne or a Boxall & Edmiston which have less mainstream popularity and it's hard to sustain the argument.  

Maybe the question ought to be framed around the rate of depreciation instead?   Something nice on the eye and exquisitely made will always retain value, indeed less than 10 years ago when we were freefalling into recession quality shotguns were seen for a while as a safer investment than gold.

I wish I'd discovered quality shotguns before I discovered cars and motorcycles, a decent firearm holds it's money quite well in comparison.   

 

[FlyingTrotter]

The OP poses the question based around a “new” gun - my own sense is that whilst you may not lose a material sum over 20 years on a new gun or pair you commission to your own spec’ it would be a brave man that invested their £90k to £300k (depending on make,spec and whether a pair) based around securing an investment BUT a Purdey Damascus pair would be nice 

if he wants to own English and is after a sxs then another option would be to look for a good condition pair by a top maker from the golden era - take a look on the Sportarm site - quite a few to tempt him there 

this is all before you factor in fashion trends and changes to the regulations covering shooting (steel shot only with an 1895 Boss/H&H/Purdey sxs !)

 

[paul b]

What hes after is a nice  traditional sxs he can justify treeting himself to that would be his pride and joy but potentially increase in value,although as long as it would potentially increase with inflation hed be happy

 

[Hamster]

If he wants an English side by side to shoot, treasure and stand a miniscule chance of its rising in value to any meaningful degree then he needs to buy second hand and carefully at that. 

Paul,

 I do not think that new guns are an investment at all. 

If you bought a new H&H , Purdey , Boss , B&E it would only appreciate at about the same rate as Currency over the years , but who then wants to pay that price for an old gun when they can buy new at possibly a discount for cash?

My Purdey has probably only appreciated at the rate of inflation since it was made .

New Guns & Old are purchases for pride of ownership or a tool to do a specific job.

Ceasar Guerini were exhibiting a new gun , fabulous presentation, equal to any High end Beretta, Blaser, Krieghoff , Perazzi but for less than £5K .

At the end of the day they are a tool.

I agree with most of what you say most of the time (even if you do say it in odd ways at times) but a £5k CG is comparable to a high end Beretta, Krieghoff or Perazzi in the same way that a doner kebab with extra chilli is equal to a Raymond Blanc steak. 

 

[b725black]

If he wants an English side by side to shoot, treasure and stand a miniscule chance of its rising in value to any meaningful degree then he needs to buy second hand and carefully at that

friend had a very nice English Damascus barrelled sidelock ejector, he gave it to his son, when he found out the cost it would be to restock it he had stopped using it,

 

[Salopian]

Hamster,

 A shotgun is a tool at the end of the day , my comparison using the CG against the other brands was to illustrate the ridiculous price variation .

Do CG's have stocks that crack regularly, side ribs that come unsoldered , double discharge , fanfire, pitted barrels etc, etc ? Maybe they do but at half the cost of the expensive tat.

Paul B , 

Not many years ago Boxall & Edmiston Guns were sold at £8,000 new custom made , now they start at circa £28,000, why not visit the factory and see for yourself Atcham near Shrewsbury.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Anyone who considers any gun an "investment" is a fool.  OK that doesn't come off as tho I'm the perfectly lovely person that I really am.  I suppose "uninformed" might be a better way of expressing it.  Even hoping that value paces inflation is likely to result in disappointment.  Increases in new prices have no predictable relationship to pre-owned prices. 

For the investors here, I have available a couple highly collectible by virtue of provenance Perazzis that I might be persuaded to part with.  Expect to pay a premium but the value could go up.

 

[squimp]

If your friend has plenty of money; then good luck to him....

The top end English guns (that is REAL English made guns) are really works of art as much as they are firearms. The pleasure of ownership and the concept of having a gun really custom made for you  are the likely reasons why they sell.

However as an investment a new English gun will depreciate rapidly like an expensive car and in my humble opinion given current price levels wont make its money back ever.

If it was my money I'd seriously consider a used English side by side (I'd take serious professional advice in the process) or possibly a new gun from a maker like Boxall & Edmiston or Longthorne. But in the real world I limit myself to Perazzi/Krieghoff (and Guerini) price points and usually second hand guns.

Just for the record a pal of mine has a pretty expensive English made  O/U that he bought new and all it does is break down. It looks lovely - but it isn't fit for purpose. Salopian is right -  a shotgun is a tool.

 

[ChrisPackham]

What hes after is a nice  traditional sxs he can justify treeting himself to that would be his pride and joy but potentially increase in value,although as long as it would potentially increase with inflation hed be happy

Depends how much he can run to, a good vintage genuine pair in a period motor case in good condition with proven and interesting Provenance is unlikely to go backwards in value (although it may be Bismuth only soon), pre war Purdey would be a good start..

 

[ips]

I am with pp. Used English side lock and have stock altered if necessary, very desirable and want lose a penny.

 

[ChrisPackham]

As an idea .... http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=A0318+++1300+&refno=++123856

As an idea .... http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=A0318+++1300+&refno=++123856

Hmm... off that, 2 inch chambers, not hugely usable

 

[Paul120]

friend had a very nice English Damascus barrelled sidelock ejector, he gave it to his son, when he found out the cost it would be to restock it he had stopped using it,

Those old English  Sxs are far more robust than you think. 

They look light and fragile but they are not.

I was out with IPS on a day in Jan where is rained stair rods most of it. 

TBH I was regretting taking mine out in such bad weather. It (as well as us) got absolutely soaked. 

Got home dried it off and let warm through and gave it a quick pull through with a bore snake and put it away. Checked it the next day to give it a proper good clean. It looked like it had never left the cabinet. 

Can't say that is my experience with a Modern gun. 

I'd probably still be refinishing the wood and checking for rust.

Those guys that built English guns at the turn of the century / between the wars knew what they were doing.

A quality (Best) gun of this period of this period will be a good investment. But advice needs to be sought from an expert as most are touching 100 years old and although time isn't an issue itself an expert needs to check if  Refurb work is required or if it has been previouly done how well It's been done. 

Proof and barrel walls need to be checked etc.

 

[Salopian]

' Hmm... off that, 2 inch chambers, not hugely usable '

Cartridges readily available from Lyalvale Express or Eley to name but two.

Admittedly the guns will possibly sell for far more than estimate.

I know of a H&H Royal, Cashmore , Linsley, Wm Evans all for sale for very sensible money , Shropshire.

 

[ChrisPackham]

' Hmm... off that, 2 inch chambers, not hugely usable '

Cartridges readily available from Lyalvale Express or Eley to name but two.

Admittedly the guns will possibly sell for far more than estimate.

I know of a H&H Royal, Cashmore , Linsley, Wm Evans all for sale for very sensible money , Shropshire.

Thanks, I hadn’t realised you could get cartridges for 50mm chambers anymore ... must ... resist... buying... more...guns!

 

[b725black]

there is an interesting article about older English guns in the  March  edition of The Field

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I know of a H&H Royal, Cashmore , Linsley, Wm Evans all for sale for very sensible money , Shropshire.

"Sensible" must have a very flexible definition

 

[Salopian]

Wonko, Sensible = not extortionate.