FLO visit or not??
- Thread starter Robden
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Depends on the force you are with.
Legally you are responsible for your security and it isn’t specified how you should do it in law therefore as long as the cabinet that you fit is deemed suitable by a judge you commit no crime.
However, the chief of police is legally responsible that your security is adequate and must risk assess it. This risk assessment is different from force to force, and while not an actual crime if you don’t inform them, they can however, revoke or not renew a certificate based on your actions if they feel it was a risk. Consequently, some will want to see it others will just question you about the install and wait till the next visit.
My advice drop them an email / phone call and tell them your plans see what they say.
I doubt you you'd ever lose your certificate over a correctly fitted change but bear in mind the above.
Legally you are responsible for your security and it isn’t specified how you should do it in law therefore as long as the cabinet that you fit is deemed suitable by a judge you commit no crime.
However, the chief of police is legally responsible that your security is adequate and must risk assess it. This risk assessment is different from force to force, and while not an actual crime if you don’t inform them, they can however, revoke or not renew a certificate based on your actions if they feel it was a risk. Consequently, some will want to see it others will just question you about the install and wait till the next visit.
My advice drop them an email / phone call and tell them your plans see what they say.
I doubt you you'd ever lose your certificate over a correctly fitted change but bear in mind the above.
The police tend to make up their own rules whether specified in law or not. For those of us that are responsible, grown up, law abiding citizens, being treated like a 10 year old can be a bit irritating, but it's always a good idea to keep them informed. Some of the firearms officers are friendly and helpful some are jobsworths.
jonz
Well-known member
I’ve never told my firearms officer of any of the changes, seem to get a different one every time they visit so reckon they wouldn’t know if I have changed the size of my cabinet or moved it from one room to another.
As long as it’s fixed to the wall and all the guns match my licence they are fine. Guess I’m lucky
As long as it’s fixed to the wall and all the guns match my licence they are fine. Guess I’m lucky
jonz
Well-known member
I’ve had up to 7 guns in my 3 gun cabinet before now, admittedly I had to break them down, but I fail to see how a cabinet is safe for 4 guns but not deemed to be safe for 5, it’s not as if it comes unscrewed from the wall if you put another gun in it. As long as the door shuts and the lock still engages then it’s just as safe as it’s always been.
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It’s to do with the risk assessment, they have to put down how many guns you can securely store in a box ticking exercise. According to government guidelines the number of guns increases risk, professional thieves are not going to target a home for 1 gun but might for 7. I know over a certain amount (I think it might be 10) the home office guidance usually increases the security requirements to level 2.
In level 3 and for numerous guns they recommend :- Dividing the risk, for example by the provision of separate cabinets, perhaps in different locations within the premises, to break down the number of firearms per enclosure.
The question any audit of your security is going to ask is how many guns can you securely store for the crime risk at your premises. If your three gun cabinet cannot physically fit 7 guns in it (and they wouldn't know without seeing it) then how are you securely storing them is the question they are going to ask, because the paper work doesn't match the number of guns.
When GMP for instance, checks your security they will state how may guns they think you can safely store. My 5 gun cabinet was rated at 7 now a new FEO and it’s an extra lock on the back door and the cabinet is now rated for 5 even though I can easily get 7 in as per the last assessment.
I couldn’t be bothered to argue, however if I did have 7 guns, for an offence they would have to prove they weren’t securely stored to a Judge in court, a tall order I think.
However, revoking my certificate would be very easy for them under their risk assessment procedures and no judge required.
This is the problem we face, we are not breaking the law just falling foul of an overzealous risk assessment from some FEO's and a court case at our expense to get our certificate back should we have it revoked.
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I know for a fact that some Forces have been renewing Certificates by post or 'on line' which has not necessitated a home visit, during this pandemic. This is something I have advocated for some time, the costly, time consuming and unnecessary visits are required, ..........................unless, there is a pandemic, it would seem ?
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This is also the case across the channel, where the 'force' has taken it upon themselves to send us letters stating our papers have been 'extended'. The weird thing is, the letter doesn't have a reference number or identifier to matches one's permits. The best part is that the expiry dates of international travel documents are also extended by these letters (that don't even state new expiry dates), but a translation into English was somehow not within budget. Not the worst, as travel is restricted anyhow but I imagine it could be hard to convince a zealous constable abroad that you aren't pulling his leg.
Visits to our homes appear to have been suspended for some time, but we do now get to show up for appointments so I hope to get properly dated paperwork signed soon.
As timps has said, it can fit four, you buy 6 where are you storing the others. He said it's not a problem if I want more, just I would need a bigger cabinet
Here in wiltshire I had a visit for the first time in 15 years, I changed my cabinet about 10 years ago and after a quick glance he didn't even mention how many guns could fit in it or take note
Just shows you the disparity between the forces. I know in 2015 GMP completely reviewed their procedures after an IPCC investigation into firearms licensing procedures country wide. A member of their staff was suspended and after that FEO’s were by the book.
I know a friends cabinet was nocked back because he hadn’t used the correct type of bolts & at my last visit the bolt heads on my cabinet were inspected for the first time since I fitted it god knows how many inspections later.
I know a friends cabinet was nocked back because he hadn’t used the correct type of bolts & at my last visit the bolt heads on my cabinet were inspected for the first time since I fitted it god knows how many inspections later.
jonz
Well-known member
But where in any legislation does it specify what type of bolts must be used?
As far as I am aware there are guidelines for security and each Police Force make their own view on the guidelines, yes I can see the requirements for inner city locations may be different from a more rural area. But to suggest that a cabinet must be bolted to the wall using a specific type of bolt is misleading. I know an estate owner who has 20 plus shotguns and they are stored in a gun room not in a cabinet.
The only legislation is that firearms must be stored securely at all times (except in certain circumstances) so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the guns by unauthorised persons. However, the legislation doesn’t go into detail on how you should do that as I have said previously, only a court case in front of a judge can establish that.
However the legislation also states “The chief officer of police MUST be satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm(s)/ammunition in their possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace.”
Therefore, the FEO on the chief officer of police behalf must risk assess your security by law, if they think it is not up to scratch then no certificate, although you have committed no crime. They tend to follow home office guidance so as to be seen reasonable however, can as I have said make it up as they go along.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-security-handbook
it states :-
2.10 page 6 The recommendations are for expanding bolts, chemical anchors and toggle bolts.
11. page 31 Provision of at least 4 fixing holes to take not less than 10mm diameter fastening devices.
BS7558 which is the British standards for gun cabinets states the type of bolts acceptable and the plastic friction type are not considered acceptable.
Therefore, what does this mean to us the certificate holder?
Well my friend also has a gun room in a cellar, no windows, steel door and separate monitored alarm. This was sufficient for years, GMP then decided that the roof (kitchen floor) and walls should now be steel lined, my friend disagreed stating as you there was no legal requirement for him to do so.
As he refused the certificate was immediately revoked as the chief officer of police was not satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm(s)/ammunition in their possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace.
My friend then took the police to court and won his case, the judge agreed his current security was in line with current legislation.
Now here is the kick in the teeth, costs are not normally awarded in firearm’s licence revocation cases unless the police behaved unreasonably.
Unreasonably is at the discretion of the judge and even though my friend won, the judge ruled it was reasonable for the police to ask the court for a ruling on his security and reading cost guidance on firearms licences cases the threshold for unreasonable is very high bar indeed.
I asked him would it have been cheaper to do as GMP asked he didn’t reply but his wife said considerably as she walked off shaking her head.
Many hours of research for expert solicitor in firearms and a barrister for the day plus court fees does not come cheap.
So, my advice is to pick your potential revocation battles wisely, the police don’t need prove a thing, just state they were not satisfied you hadn’t followed home office guidance on your fixings which in brick should be 4 in number not less than 10mm diameter fastening devices either expanding bolts, chemical anchors or toggle bolts.
You are going to be hard pressed to prove unreasonable behaviour when the current British Standards and home office guidance recommends it.
Now your Firearms department may be different but GMP are certainly sticking to Home Office Guidance to the letter if you want a certificate from them.
Edit: Just to add myself and my two friends live in rural areas on the west Pennine moors.
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Fred Flintstone
Well-known member
Just for info...
I had an FEO visit 2 weeks ago (Kent police - and fair play to them, they are continuing to process grants and renewals through this lockdown, with a verbal risk assessment by phone the evening before the planned visit).
When checking my safe, I was specifically asked how it was fixed to the wall (no problem, 6 x M10 threaded rods chemically anchored), and he also noted the ‘rated’ size of the safe on the paperwork.
Real nice chap, but very thorough (as it should be, in my view!).
I had an FEO visit 2 weeks ago (Kent police - and fair play to them, they are continuing to process grants and renewals through this lockdown, with a verbal risk assessment by phone the evening before the planned visit).
When checking my safe, I was specifically asked how it was fixed to the wall (no problem, 6 x M10 threaded rods chemically anchored), and he also noted the ‘rated’ size of the safe on the paperwork.
Real nice chap, but very thorough (as it should be, in my view!).
Surprise, Surprise...................Criminals have or 'borrow' cars nowadays, this enables them to leave their inner city locations for more rural areas.
jonz
Well-known member
Them city sh*theads stick out like the dogs dangly bits down here Westley, um don’t speak proper like what we does
That's as maybe, BUT, they do not fight by Queensbury Rules. 3 or 4 of them armed with baseball bats or worse, believe me, you will open that gun cabinet. There has been a few top clay shooters targeted over the years, their guns were the main target, of course but it probably changed their lives.......................for ever !
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