Gun help

[Darren27]

I'm sure I'm probably the thousandth person to ask advise about a first gun, but your help would be appreciated all the same.

I did a try day a couple years ago and really enjoyed it, work/life commitments meant that I haven't really been able to do much about it since.  All I really managed to take away from the try day was that I was right handed but left eye dominant.  I started off shooting right handed but hardly managed to hit anything, but after a suggestion from the instructor i shot the last 10 clays left handed with a marked (if still insignificant) improvement.

The problem I have is that I struggle with a bad back and have an old injury to my left shoulder.  As far as my back is concerned I would like to keep the gun weight as low as practical, or at least as close to my body as possible to reduce the strain on my lower back.  As to my shoulder, I didn't notice much after the try day, but that was only 30 clays, is shooting 75 clays much worse that 30?

I don't know whether to persevere with shooting left handed or try learning to manage with my right, equally would a 20b be lighter than a 12b, would a semi help with recoil on my left shoulder???

I'm sure that if I had the opportunity to talk things over with an instructor, we could work through some of these issues, but as all the schools are currently closed and i'm waiting for an opportunity to rebook my lessons,  I'm hoping the collective wisdom of this forum might be able to offer some advise.

Thanks.

 

[El Spavo]

Recoil pain/discomfort/bruising quickly got less for me the more I did it but perhaps a semi auto might be a way for you if its that bad as the recoil is way less, although I'm sure the lovely folk on here will assist if they have similar issues and are regular O/U shooters.

20g seems to be a funny one that a lot on here say it kicks like a mule, much worse than a 12g, but then others say their 90 year old mum will prefer it to anything else!

Good luck.

 

[Centrepin]

You could always try right handed, left eye closed.

A lighter gun, you will feel more recoil.

If you opt for a semi and still fire left handed make sure it ejects to the left too.

.410 is low or zero recoil and if you're not a competitive shooter may suit your needs.

 

[McTrucky]

If you can handle a gun just as comfortably left or right handed; and you have a left shoulder injury I would shoot right handed with a blinder on your left eye.  (You will find a blinder that lets light into your left eye is better than closing your left eye.  Try looking in a mirror and shutting one eye, the pupil in the other eye dilates to compensate for the reduction in light coming in and thus your depth of focus gets affected).

Also 90% of shooters are right handed, which makes availability of guns to borrow, try or buy much easier if you shoot right handed.

If you persist left handed, then an auto is a good shout.  I am a leftie and have used autos that spit the shell across my face.  Not ideal, but with decent eye protection not too much to worry about.  A downward or right sided ejection would obviously be better though.

The calibre doesn't matter.  Recoil is an equal and opposite reaction to what comes out the front of the gun.  A heavier gun will move more slowly than a lighter gun to balance the momentum and kinetic energy of the projectile.  Likewise a slower projectile will have less momentum and energy.  So best way to soften recoil is use a heavy gun with a light load.  Autos produce less recoil because they have a reloading mechanism that throws mass backwards when firing which compresses a spring, which then releases the stored energy as it loads the next round.  So an auto does maintain the law of physics, but appears to kick less as the kick is slower and lasts longer, rather than a sharper kick of 'solid' gun.

Personally, I would steer you towards an over and under sporter (game guns are lighter) and some 21g cartridges.  Very gentle to shoot. 

Then you also have various styles of recoil pad.  Solid wood or a hard plate will hurt more than a big squishy rubber pad.  All sorts of things to experiment with to find what will work best for you.

Lastly, does 100 shots hurt more than 25?  Yes.  But your body adapts and when you first start, the impact is a novel thing your body is unprepared for.  As you build up how much you shoot, you will also build up strength and resilience to the repeated impacts.  So don't let a day when you over do it put you off, you do come back stronger as the cliché goes. 

 

[westley]

I'm sure I'm probably the thousandth person to ask advise about a first gun, but your help would be appreciated all the same.

I did a try day a couple years ago and really enjoyed it, work/life commitments meant that I haven't really been able to do much about it since.  All I really managed to take away from the try day was that I was right handed but left eye dominant.  I started off shooting right handed but hardly managed to hit anything, but after a suggestion from the instructor i shot the last 10 clays left handed with a marked (if still insignificant) improvement.

The problem I have is that I struggle with a bad back and have an old injury to my left shoulder.  As far as my back is concerned I would like to keep the gun weight as low as practical, or at least as close to my body as possible to reduce the strain on my lower back.  As to my shoulder, I didn't notice much after the try day, but that was only 30 clays, is shooting 75 clays much worse that 30?

I don't know whether to persevere with shooting left handed or try learning to manage with my right, equally would a 20b be lighter than a 12b, would a semi help with recoil on my left shoulder???

I'm sure that if I had the opportunity to talk things over with an instructor, we could work through some of these issues, but as all the schools are currently closed and i'm waiting for an opportunity to rebook my lessons,  I'm hoping the collective wisdom of this forum might be able to offer some advise.

Thanks.

And for the 1000th time I will say you really NEED to try a selection of guns of different styles and weights,  to see which suits you the best. If you are using an O/U,  then stick with 24 gram or less cartridges. If you are trying an auto then may I suggest that you stick with a gas operated design which may require a 28 gram cartridge, but the felt or perceived recoil,  will be less. This is due to the mechanism. In the meantime check out YouTube and Lloyd Patterson's gun tests. They are excellent and informative, especially the Beretta semi auto test.

 

[Doctor Lecter]

And for the 1000th time I will say you really NEED to try a selection of guns of different styles and weights,  to see which suits you the best. If you are using an O/U,  then stick with 24 gram or less cartridges. If you are trying an auto then may I suggest that you stick with a gas operated design which may require a 28 gram cartridge, but the felt or perceived recoil,  will be less. This is due to the mechanism. In the meantime check out YouTube and Lloyd Patterson's gun tests. They are excellent and informative, especially the Beretta semi auto test.

yes Lloyds reviews are great , I like the look of that beretta a 400 xtreme plus   :clapping:

 

[westley]

yes Lloyds reviews are great , I like the look of that beretta a 400 xtreme plus   :clapping:

I could clean my 303 three times over by the time it took to clean that thing. It had more springs and valves than a heart operating theatre  ! 

 

[Doctor Lecter]

I could clean my 303 three times over by the time it took to clean that thing. It had more springs and valves than a heart operating theatre  ! 

I'm a tad sensitive to recoil , and watching that review it looked like zero recoil  ?

 

[westley]

I have a knackered right shoulder and use 24 gram Cheddite cartridges in my 725 sporter, however when my shoulder is really bad I go to my 303 Beretta and Hull superfarts. They work without a hitch in the auto and the cleaning after a 100 birder is so easy. I have had other auto's but binned them all in favour of the old 303. Mainly because of too many fiddly bits to have to clean. 

 

[Darren27]

If you can handle a gun just as comfortably left or right handed; and you have a left shoulder injury I would shoot right handed with a blinder on your left eye.  (You will find a blinder that lets light into your left eye is better than closing your left eye.  Try looking in a mirror and shutting one eye, the pupil in the other eye dilates to compensate for the reduction in light coming in and thus your depth of focus gets affected).

I wouldn't say it was comfortable shooting left-handed, it felt totally wrong and I was all "fingers and thumbs", but despite the fumbling I did manage to hit a few clays and was generally closer all round.  I only shot 10 so hard to say overall, but with practice I think I could become competent with shooting left handed.

Personally, I would steer you towards an over and under sporter (game guns are lighter) and some 21g cartridges.  Very gentle to shoot. 

Showing my total ignorance here, but does a light cartridge such as a 21 make it harder to hit a target? I'm thinking that a 21 will have less individual pieces of shot as a 28 of the same shot size, so does that mean the pattern is less dense with the 21 or smaller?  I'm thinking from the perspective of a complete novice who will probably need even advantage going to actually hit anything and gun newbie logic would suggest a bigger "cloud" of shot give more chance of hitting something.

And for the 1000th time I will say you really NEED to try a selection of guns of different styles and weights,  to see which suits you the best. If you are using an O/U,  then stick with 24 gram or less cartridges. If you are trying an auto then may I suggest that you stick with a gas operated design which may require a 28 gram cartridge, but the felt or perceived recoil,  will be less. This is due to the mechanism. In the meantime check out YouTube and Lloyd Patterson's gun tests. They are excellent and informative, especially the Beretta semi auto test.

In an ideal world I would hopefully have had a couple of lessons by now and bored my instructor with all my stupid questions, and hopefully had a chance to, if not shoot then, at least handle a few of the guns in the gun shop at the school and get a feel for what works for me.  

I looked up Lloyd on YouTube and yes I have watch quite a few now.  He has tested some nice semi autos, although the 525SL laminate caught my eye, WAY out my price range unfortunately but looked lovely.  The A391he had on test looked a good gun in my price range.  Are there any models of O/U in the £600 (ish) you would suggest looking out for?

 

[McTrucky]

On the second bit, yes, spot on.  Less weight means less pellets (of the same shot size) means more likely to be holes in the pattern that the odd clay will slip through.  But keep in mind, the big boys and girls at ISSF events (such as the Olympics) use 24 grams of lead quite effectively.

The likes of you and I can 'cheat' by using more pellets, and more open chokes to get a bigger spread and so can get away with being less accurate.  And it is not cheating at some events that do allow more pellet's. 

The difference is not that massive, and you are unlikely to actually notice any difference on your score card until you are of fairly high standard.  But you will notice the effect on your shoulder, and hurting you self is not going to encourage you to develop good techniques, or indeed, even enjoy your shooting.  

Also, and it may or not be relevant, lighter cartridges are less expensive.

 

[Lloyd]

Are there any models of O/U in the £600 (ish) you would suggest looking out for?

Yes. Kofs from about £500 new, ATA from £600 new, Webbley and Scott from about £800 new. Some on the Second hand market from about £400.

I've shot the ATA, they’re not a particular heavy gun and I have to say, while the finish isn’t as polished as a Beretta (of which the ATA is a copy), the shoot well. Good value for money in my estimation.

I’ve not shot the others. The W&S seems a more nicely finished product. 

 

[Finners]

@Darren27 My 2p worth.

If you're thinking of taking up serious competitive shooting (I'm assuming not BTW) You'd be wise to wait until you have had a few lessons.

If you're not thinking of taking up serious competitive shooting, the same advice applies. 

We will all want to help, but without actually seeing you shoot it's pretty difficult to give properly founded advice.

However, some advice can be given without seeing you shoot:  Do try the 21 and 24g cartridges, even if only to start with. Also, be aware that often those who buy a cheaper (ish) first gun, will within a year or so, be looking to upgrade. Also, if you do decide to shoot right shouldered, you'll have a far greater choice (I know, I'm a left hooker)

So, I'd urge you towards a higher budget, perhaps around £1k and search out decent used gun from the more established brands. Try as many as you can and pick one that suits you. 

 

[Darren27]

I can't see me doing anything competitive and given my other family commitments, if I can get out 1 or 2 Sundays mornings a month for a few hours at a local shoot, i'll be more than happy.

I could push the budget to £850 - 900.  I have seen some Brownings and Miroku in my upper price range, but they are all older guns, 15+ years in some cases and instinctively it feels that a newer gun (Bettinsoli, W&S, Lincoln etc) is going to be more reliable.  I keep thinking I'd rather have a nearly new Vauxhall than a 15 year old BMW.  Given the general advice to always look to the better makes, do shotguns have the same sort of issues as they get older?

 

[El Spavo]

Exactly what Finners said!

I've been shooting just over 18 months now, not overly regular cos of the cost, but still usually aim to get into the mid/high 60's at least, which isn't great compared to some on here but I don't have the luxury of chucking money or being the Messi of the shotgun world, blessed with every natural talent going.

However, when I bought my first gun I looked at the ATA (priced at the time at about £700ish brand new I think?) and a few others but gave myself a budget of around a grand, perhaps a little more if there was summat real special available, and I managed to get a 3 year old, 2015 standard Browning 525 Sporter One which appeared to not have been shot much for a few quid under that. As we stand now, apart from I'd like an adjustable comb becuase I'm the sort of ***** who thinks that now might be a little tweekable and that might improve my positioning and therefore scores, I'm still not looking at getting anything else. Ever! Don't need it! I may have felt differently if I'd restricted to the cheapest I could get though... and Mr Hewland has told me a few times he got rid of a gun early on that he shouldn't have because of the draw of the next best thing, so make a wise choice when you start looking: you don't need to bust the bank, but you can definitely get a gun for life for not a lot more than what you're presently looking at.

Oh, and it's still scary as f*ck buying that first one when you know absolutely **** all about what you're looking for, so don't worry when that happens... I didn't know anyone I could take with me but luckily I took it to the nearest ground to the selling gunsmith (AGL near Luton) and the guys both in the shop and walking around were able to advise that it wasn't a lemon, so there's nice fellas all over the place who do this, and that's why I love doing it cos it's like when I used to play rugby... camaraderie!   If you can, try a few of the big boys, your 525, silver pigeon, mirooks, etc, and see what just feels right without worrying about HOW they work!

If you're near enough to me, and I generally shoot near Bisley, I'm happy to go with yourself or anyone for a bit of a laugh and pop a few because of that friendly thing I've found at grounds when I've been around.

I can't see me doing anything competitive and given my other family commitments, if I can get out 1 or 2 Sundays mornings a month for a few hours at a local shoot, i'll be more than happy.

I could push the budget to £850 - 900.  I have seen some Brownings and Miroku in my upper price range, but they are all older guns, 15+ years in some cases and instinctively it feels that a newer gun (Bettinsoli, W&S, Lincoln etc) is going to be more reliable.  I keep thinking I'd rather have a nearly new Vauxhall than a 15 year old BMW.  Given the general advice to always look to the better makes, do shotguns have the same sort of issues as they get older?

If you're worried, stick to the main brands,... shotguns don't seem to really go too wrong. Thing with your car analogy is that there's thousands of things to go wrong with them: if you think of it as if it were just the engine part, the shotguns are like hydrogen engines instead of standard petrol/diesel... they only have one moving part so they shouldn't ever really fail, and if they do, it's REALLY easy to fix! Models don't change too much over the years for a reason, that's why the big boys in your price range are always gonna be the Browning 525, Miroku MK38, MK6000/60, & MK7000/70 (both have similar numbers cos they're pretty much slight updates of the 1000 model number!), and the Beretta 692 SIlver Pigeon... and have been for a gazillion years! It really is pretty much if it don't break...

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I personally wouldn't consider buying a gun before you make an informed decision on whether to shoot right or left handed. It matters in most if not all guns. And, despite Covid-circumstances being what they are - base your decision on qualified instruction to help you sort this.  

If you do 'pull the trigger' but want to keep your options open, buy a left handed gun. The reason for that is the possibility of swapping stocks: finding a second(-hand) stock in a righthanded configuration will be a lot easier than finding a leftie, as they are few. Again you'll see that for the 'main brands' your options are better, as they've been around for donkeys and more owners tinker with these, selling their old parts while buying new stocks and such (which wouldn't make much sense on a 500 quid gun). You might have to consider the orientation of the key as well on some models, I am not sure how easy that would be to change (but it shouldn't be insurmountable).

So, try both extensively with help in deciding and only then invest in a gun. That might help in racking up more budget too. If you want more options in available stocks and such, go with a brand and model that has been around for a while and proven reliable. There's nothing wrong with a 'proper' second hand gun that's been looked after if you want the best bang for your buck.    

 

[Charliedog]

Dont be afraid of the cheap new gun, they seem to hold value better than expected and if youre not hammering them each week will be fine.

There are also plenty of lightly used second hand bargains out there of all types, take your time and have a look around

 

[Lloyd]

You might have to consider the orientation of the key as well on some models, I am not sure how easy that would be to change (but it shouldn't be insurmountable).

I shoot left handed with a right hand opening. Simply push rather than pull. I’m quite used to it and I think given the choice, I’d still go for right hand opening as it feels quite normal.

I do think in the early days one can easily become fixated on things like stock length, comb height, cast etc. (I certainly did)
For what it’s worth, (very little is should imagine) but I shot rifles right handed as right handed guns were the only ones available to me. I had no concept in those days of eye dominance. I shot left eye closed and despite a lifelong micro-squint that distorts any image from my right eye, I regularly shot 20 rounds in a 10cm group at 100 meters, up to 20 rounds in a 30cm group at 600 meters on fixed sights.

When I started shooting clays, I began from my right, quickly changed to my left when I discovered my left eye dominance. I’ve shot right hand stock that are an inch too long and too low in the comb.

I once switched back to shooting right shoulder a little while ago to demonstrate to a fairly stubborn instructor who insisted I should shoot from my natural limb dominance and sort out eye dominance with a gadget taped to my glasses. I’ve had other instructors say they would insist clients learn to shoot from their shoulder of eye dominance.

This switching around hasn’t impacted my “scores” too much. Probably in the order of 5-10 clays per 100. Ok, so in a competition, that’s drastic, but if you’re shooting for enjoyment, then does that really matter too much? I do know this, when I’m relaxed and enjoying the shooting for the sake of enjoyment, I shoot a whole lot better than I do if I’m focused on trying not to miss or wondering if my gun fit is correct.

This of course is my own personal experience and is anecdotal at that.  But my advice, which isn’t really worth all that much to be honest, is to read and watch videos of shooting to help with this affliction we have while we wait to get back outdoors.

When this lockdown is over and we can get back out, try a number of guns, with a number of instructors at a number of grounds. You’ll hear all sorts of ‘good advice’. Try out what you’re asked to do, go with the flow and enjoy the experiments. 

After maybe a half dozen or so lessons, you may start to develop your own sense of what you’re comfortable with and what you enjoy and what you don’t.  With that knowledge, you’ll be better placed to decide where to spend your hard earned cash, be that an auto, a O/U, a new ATA or a used Browning or whatever.

Just my $0,02c

 

[Finners]

I can't see me doing anything competitive and given my other family commitments, if I can get out 1 or 2 Sundays mornings a month for a few hours at a local shoot, i'll be more than happy.

I could push the budget to £850 - 900.  I have seen some Brownings and Miroku in my upper price range, but they are all older guns, 15+ years in some cases and instinctively it feels that a newer gun (Bettinsoli, W&S, Lincoln etc) is going to be more reliable.  I keep thinking I'd rather have a nearly new Vauxhall than a 15 year old BMW.  Given the general advice to always look to the better makes, do shotguns have the same sort of issues as they get older?

Hi again, 

I kind of assumed you're not looking to compete at registered shoots. That may come later perhaps? I'd echo some of the words of advice provided since my last post. Firstly, there's no rush to buy a gun. If you've not got a certificate, that could take months in any case.

In the meantime, do try to get some experience, ie via a few lessons and using other peoples guns (most people I know will happily let newbies try their gun out) Different guns do have a "feel" and they do shoot differently - ie some shoot "flat" so you need to blank the clay out to hit it, others shoot a little high, so you rest the clay just above the bead to hit it (ask your coach to explain this) It will take a little while for you to develop your style and then to learn and decide which gun best suits your style. 

Also, you've not said which discipline you prefer, do you know? This could possibly affect your choice. 

Despite what I said earlier, getting a brand new ATA /Bettinsoli/Lincoln etc is certainly not a bad thing. Generally, reliability is usually pretty good with guns and age need not be an issue. My last purchase (my current gun) was a 10 year old Caesar Guerini. But it had very little use, and is going along very well. So, better to go with a gun that you're happy with and more importantly fits both you (physically) and suits your main intended use, again you'll quickly sort this out once you actually start shooting. 

Next move? Get a few lessons to start with. Then pop along to your local shoot, (you don't need to own agun) have a chat with the ground owner and they will advise the best options for you. I've known many new shooters who've come along to my local shoot and the ground owner finds a suitable group for them to join. That's assuming you don't already know people? If not, you will find shooters are very welcoming and will encourage you with great gusto until you start beating them 

If you live anywhere near me, you'll be more than welcome to join me, once we start shooting again