Gun safe position

[irish1759]

Hi I'm a newbie here and also to shooting. I have recently starting clay shooting and am really enjoying it. I will soon be ready to start looking for my own shotgun soon.

My question is, I live in a Victorian terrace house that was a basement that is locked but accessed from the rear of the house. I phone try local firearms police officer and asked them if I could put a safe here. She seemed not very helpful and like I wasn't getting her full attention, she may have been very busy. She said it would be ok as long as it was secure. Do you think that they will use my licence is I had a safe installed. The basement if fairly large and damp free. It has two wooden doors that lock with padlock on the outside. I'm not sure if I can maybe get the police to view the location before I fill out the forms or what. What do you think my chances are, as have no room in my house.

 

[tonky70]

Fill your form out and when the officer comes to your house he will tell you or suggest a safe place to put it and then he will inspect your safe is secure before he hands over you sgc

 

[irish1759]

Will they come out before I install the safe, as I don't want to install it and have to move it or lose my money for the licence. It's just that the lady I spoke to in the police wasn't really fused were it was, but I would rather it be safe in a pace they were happy with.

 

[tonky70]

Try and contact your local officer and have a chat with them first and see what they say

 

[Harley]

Hi Irish

I've just recently had my visit, but before the officer came round he said the safe needs to be fitted to main wall preferably on the fist floor.

Personally i think the safe should be fitted against the left corner of main wall (if the safe opens from the left) this helps complicate the thief from prying it open with a crowbar.

Sent from my iFone using Tapatalk

 

[** Pending Removal **]

For your information......

Home Office Guidance for the Police.

(Sorry it prints out in this way.)

It is 'guidance' because there is no actual law that says that you have to have a cabinet. The Home Office basically says under lock and key or words to that effect.

However the following is what it issues to the Police Forces. It is a 122 page document so i have only taken the relevant bit ....hope it helps. (UK only).

FIREARMS LAW

GUIDANCE TO THE POLICE

Chapter 19

SECURITY OF FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

Siting and fixing of devices

19.38 Any firearm security cabinet etc. should

be sited out of view from people both inside

and outside the building. Securing to suitable

building walls within built-in furnishings, that

is wardrobes, cupboards, lockers etc. can

prove effective. Rooms such as lofts and

cellars for example, that are unlikely to be

visited by casual visitors, are an option.

However, when recommending such places,

it is important to consider whether the

environment is suitable. Extremes in

temperature, dampness, condensation etc. may

militate against such use, as not only could

it result in damage to the firearms and

ammunition but particularly in damp areas,

it may cause erosion of the fixings or the

cabinet material, thus reducing its security.

19.39 In addition, the ease and convenience

of access to such places is important. If this

is difficult there may be a tendency for the

certificate holder to delay putting their

firearms away upon return to the dwelling.

Police research has shown that a number of

losses have involved owners not immediately

securing their weapons and suffering their

subsequent theft.

19.40 In advising on the location of any

security cabinet, remember that most steel

gun cabinets have a high weight-to-footprint

ratio. The average floor loading for a

suspended floor on timber joists is 56lbs

per square foot. A 9-gun cabinet with a

24" x 12" (60.1 x 30.1 cm) footprint can

be in the order of 126 lbs per square foot

which equates to more than a safe average

suspended floor loading. Obviously, any

fixing to a wall will reduce this loading.

Joist ends are a more suitable fixing location

than joist runs.

19.41 In a loft installation for a cabinet, care

needs to be exercised. Not all lofts have

joists calculated to include weight loading

other than that of the ceiling below. It is not

uncommon for joists in lofts to be 40%

smaller in cross sections than joists carrying

floors. Full use must therefore be made of

the support from structural walls carrying

such joists. If there is any doubt, the

applicant/certificate holder should obtain

proper structural advice.

19.42 Fixings for security devices form an

important part of the overall resistance to

attack. Fastening to timber studded walls

should be avoided, unless some additional

anchorage can be provided. Floor or roof

joists (subject to the previous comments) are

acceptable. Walls of brick, concrete or

masonry are usually the best bonding

materials. It is important that the fixing bolts

chosen are correct for that material (for

example expanding bolts, chemical anchors,

toggle bolts etc.). With modern building

materials, particularly breeze and thermal

block walls, the materials are not particularly

suited to normal fixing devices.

19.43 When cabinets are being fitted,

consideration should be given to varying the

method of fixing. For example, in buildings

with only partition internal walls and modern

insulation block lining or random stone walls,

it can be perfectly acceptable to fix cabinets

horizontally, as long as appropriate fixing

devices are used.

19.44 This will also assist when fastening into

suspended wooden flooring, as it spreads the

load more evenly. In this case, coach screws

of at least 3/8" (9.5mm) diameter and not

less than 2.5" (63.5mm) long will normally

provide a suitable anchorage. However, where

screws of such a size might weaken the

suspended flooring, smaller screws might

be more appropriate. Such fixings must of

course be made into joists and not simply

to the floor boarding.

19.45 Another consideration should be the

size and weight of the larger form of gun

cabinet or commercial safe. Due to their very

weight or size, fixing may be unnecessary in

these cases, but they should be located in

such a position that would further frustrate

removal.

 

[ExSCA]

That's the ticket - thanks Nic.

Looks like your basement might work - assuming that it is secure, low traffic and environmentally suitable. IANAL of course.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Postscript.....

I would not consider a cellar unless is was dry and temperature controlled.....otherwise you will have guns with rust faster than you can blink!!

 

[ExSCA]

Hence my 'environmentally suitable' comment

 

[ianmaney]

Personally I'd never put a gun safe in the cellar, I've had cellars in houses in the past as as previous posters have said, the gun and possibly the safe will rust before you know it and let's face it, neither are very cheap to buy and I've never come across a dry and warm cellar!

 

[Westward]

As Nic pointed out the law refers to secure storage and not specifically to a cabinet. The Police and particularly the ACPO decided long ago that they can "adjust" the law as and when it suits them, and sadly when it comes to gun security it behoves us to keep them happy. This usually means having a cabinet, but they will accept those lockable clamp things that fix the gun onto the rafters in the loft. I've had inspections in 2 previous houses and in both the cabinet was visible from inside and in 1 house it could just be seen through a window if you contorted enough. They still accepted them though.

I very much recommend asking them for an informed opinion. They will call to arrange the inspection and if you explain about the cabinet the office may well come anyway. My situation was exactly that, and the officer checked the house security, asked a simple question or 2 and said he'd come back with the SGC and inspect the cabinet at the same time. (3 days later postman Pat delivered the SGC to my house and I never saw the officer again!)

Basic rules when dealing with the firearms officer are don't argue, don't attempt any jokes, don't take the piss and offer tea and doughnuts.

 

[Dpark516]

Although not ideal from an environmental position, from a security position a cellar is sounds like a great position - well out of the way, plenty of solid walls to attach the safe to. If thats the only possible location then it's as good as any. A number of people I know have the safes in their lofts without problems.

I'd not expect the FEO to have any issues - unless of course you forget the coffee and biscuits

 

[irish1759]

Thanks for the replays, I'll have someone out to have a look. The cellar is dry and free from damp. I checked all walls with damp meter and it s very vented to prevent damp. There is also heading pipes running along the top. Another point is when I bought the house, from a gay couple who were both doctors, it looked like they were drying out cannabis plants down there, as there was a rack build and traces of plants on the racks. So it is pretty warm there too..

 

[Skeet UK]

Thanks for the replays, I'll have someone out to have a look. The cellar is dry and free from damp. I checked all walls with damp meter and it s very vented to prevent damp. There is also heading pipes running along the top. Another point is when I bought the house, from a gay couple who were both doctors, it looked like they were drying out cannabis plants down there, as there was a rack build and traces of plants on the racks. So it is pretty warm there too..

The trouble is, if the basement can be accessed from outside the property, you may have to fit better doors, or perhaps an extra pair of doors inside, like gates if you know what I mean.

If someone can get in there and work out of sight and undisturbed, is the way it would be viewed.

What you essentially have to do, is make it as difficult as possible for anyone to see the cabinet, or work on it quietly..."so far as is reasonably practicable"

 

[Salopian]

A cellar by it's description is a cold , damp and soul less room, perfect for brewing and storing real ale or noisy children.

The doors accessing outside would need to be of sturdy construction with well fitting doors and seven lever lock,and bolts, not just a padlock and hasp or a Yale lock.

That all being said I know of Forces that allow cabinets to be secured in pre-cast concrete garages at the side of houses, which in my personal opinion is less secure than storing under the bed in the house.

But where firearms and ACPO are concerned, logic and common sense is the topic for a future training seminar.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

This is where everyone goes off the real home office guidelines.....and I say again......guidelines.

The fact that it is in a cabinet already exceeds the law. The fact it is then bolted to a wall 'somewhere' .......exceeds the law again. The fact that there is a lock on the door.....yet again exceeds. There is no requirement to have locks on windows or alarms....these are all things made up by various police forces to make their own rules.

I and BSSC have always resisted any interpretation of the HOGL for their own use. If any of you are having trouble in this way please let me know. The law is the law and that is the only think that can be enforced.

I am not suggesting for one minute that you start arguing from the start.......but I have had to remind officers from different licensing authorities on several occasions.....what the law actually is.....and guess what.......I got what 'I' wanted in the positions 'I' wanted .

Beware of bullying by the police, dependent on area. Most who come out to do this job are reasonable people. They are also looking at you as well remember so act normally, not as a whimp or as an abrasive person......but don't eat sh*t either.

Remember it is very very difficult to get into a gun cabinet that is bolted to any structural wall with the correct bolts. Don't over complicate it people. It a real professional is after your guns, you will not be able to stop them. They will wait until you are out, gain easy access to your house no matter what alarms or locks you have .....and break the safe......Fact!!

So answer is that you have done your job and exceeded the laws requirement by using a cabinet.

Now then......more importantly .....is where you put the key and who knows about where the key is......answer......no one who is not a licence holder.

Want your guns taken away......????

Then let your mother, wife, daughter etc etc give the firearms man the key............LAUGH OUT LOUD......then you can kiss it goodbye.......True story!!

 

[Darkside]

I have a friend who keeps his money, receipts and fishing/shooting deposits in gun cabinet as its the only place his wife dosen't have access to..........true story!!!

 

[Clanchief]

I would never consider putting guns in a basement that is accessed from seperate doors from the main house. When was the last time you were in your basement ? Days perhaps........!!!!! As this would be when you would last notice you had guns.

Make room in your house. End of

 

[Skeet UK]

Now then......more importantly .....is where you put the key and who knows about where the key is......answer......no one who is not a licence holder.

Want your guns taken away......????

Then let your mother, wife, daughter etc etc give the firearms man the key............LAUGH OUT LOUD......then you can kiss it goodbye.......True story!!

Very true. There is a story, not sure how true it is, that an FLO made an impromptu visit to a house. The certificate holder was out, but the wife was home. The wife tells the FLO that her husband is not home, but offers the key to check the cabinet and guns...oh dear... Lost his guns as well as other repercutions.

As Nicola says, the Law states that you have to take reasonable precautions to prevent unlawful access to the guns etc.

A friend of mine built a room on his house, one security door no windows. It is his gun and reloading room and all the guns simply sit in racks, because the entire room is as secure as one could reasonably make it.