I read this in a lot of gun reviews, is this how most people set a gun up for ESP? Are there advantages to bring this balance point slightly backwards or forwards of the hinge pin? Or is it a case of just trying it and seeing how it feels when actually shooting?
It balances on the hinge pin....
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Will Hewland
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It’s a decent first reference point for most people on most guns, but is really only a guide. Weight distribution along the whole gun from muzzle to butt pad will affect how the gun feels, not just it’s fulcrum point. If you like the feel of a gun and it turns out it’s not balanced on the pin, don’t lose any sleep.
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It's (perhaps) better to think about the balance point being between a mid point the hands though the stock is also in contact withe the shoulder so there can be some support at that point to. The assumption is that the mid point between the hands will be the hinge pin but that is too much of a generalization and as Will correctly says each person will perceive balance differently. The only thing I would say is that those new to the sport often find a balance point behind the hinge pin attractive because it makes the barrels feel lively yet once you have shot for a little time you realise this can create a lack of control. The same is true of light barrels - easy to swing but hard to control.
P.S. its usually easy to add weight to a stock (and go to the gym) so i would probably make sure the barrels were right and work around that . . . .
P.S. its usually easy to add weight to a stock (and go to the gym) so i would probably make sure the barrels were right and work around that . . . .
It really is a personal thing and depends a lot on your gun mount and your style of shooting. I had some issues with fit and balance recently. I was forced into a position whereby I had to change my clay shooting gun. I ended up with a new Browning XS Pro. The point of balance was bang on the pin without any of the multitude of bits and weights that came with the gun, fitted. My scores dropped from mid 70'/low 80's to mid 60's. Try as I might (and I really did try everything) I just could not live with the gun. I had tried stock and barrel weights in every conceivable combination but all to no avail. I did the obvious and got rid of the gun after 3 months. I tried a ProSport and to me, it just felt right. My scores started to climb back up. Again, this gun balanced on the pin straight out of the box. Having heard Ben80 advising having the back end heavier than the front, I tried that. It did not work for me. I removed all stock weights and fitted the barrel weights. This moved the point of balance forward slightly, but not by much. The weights were fitted to the barrels, inside the forend. This made no real difference to the guns handling. I then tried fitting the barrel weights about 4" back from the muzzle. My scores went back up to low 80's. I removed the barrel weights and shot the same layout (not on the same day, that is beyond me now) my scores dropped back to a 72 but I felt that I was really having to work, especially on fast crossers or fast downhill targets. I refitted the weights in the same position and at a different ground, I did a 60 bird sporter, dropping 10. Then ......Lockdown. Early days, but fitting the barrel weights near to the muzzle, although not altering the point of balance by much, (around 1/4" ahead of the pin) the gun just seems to handle and shoot better FOR ME !
I'll get me tin hat on
I'll get me tin hat on
I had a Browning ultra XS with extended Midas chokes and although it was lighter overall than than the DT10 that replaced it the Browning felt heavier in the hands due to the weight being all in the barrels and the Midas extended chokes being made out of the heaviest substance known to man stuck right on the end of 32”.
Changing them out for ported lighter ones helped in the handling department but made me despise ported chokes at the same time.
My DT10 weighs in at 8 pound 6oz the balance point is between the hands but with a slightly rearward bias, My Caesar Guerini also weighs in at 8 pound 6oz but with a slightly forward bias.
I originally added some weight in the stock of my Caesar to balance it just like the DT 10 but I actually seem to prefer how it came standard so the weight is now back in the tool box.
Having shot a barrel heavy gun for quite some time where the bulk of the weight was most definitely not between the hands therefore it handled like a pig on a shovel I’m in no hurry to go back to them. However I did get some decent scores with it so maybe it’s not as critical as my mind keeps telling me but I rather shoot with weight between the hands with either a slight forward or rear bias. The DT 10 suits rear and the Caesar suits forward and I’ve given up trying to fathom out why.
Changing them out for ported lighter ones helped in the handling department but made me despise ported chokes at the same time.
My DT10 weighs in at 8 pound 6oz the balance point is between the hands but with a slightly rearward bias, My Caesar Guerini also weighs in at 8 pound 6oz but with a slightly forward bias.
I originally added some weight in the stock of my Caesar to balance it just like the DT 10 but I actually seem to prefer how it came standard so the weight is now back in the tool box.
Having shot a barrel heavy gun for quite some time where the bulk of the weight was most definitely not between the hands therefore it handled like a pig on a shovel I’m in no hurry to go back to them. However I did get some decent scores with it so maybe it’s not as critical as my mind keeps telling me but I rather shoot with weight between the hands with either a slight forward or rear bias. The DT 10 suits rear and the Caesar suits forward and I’ve given up trying to fathom out why.
I recently tried a DT11 and that was so stock heavy, it was incredible. Although I hit targets with it, again I found it hard work. I have only moved the balance point forwards by around 1/4", but it just makes the gun easier to move. As I have said, it is a personal preference.
Usually if it 'feels right' between the hands, it is reasonably well balanced.I have messed about with pretty much every aspect of gunfit you can think of or mess with....apart from balance point, it's never really bothered me were it balances as long as it feels right in the hands
I’d never really given it any thought, I have a 692 30” with whatever stock weights that come as standard fitted. I’m trying a MK38 32” trap but with sporter wood, I put some weight (2 oz) in the stock and it felt very stock heavy in the hands. Taken an ounce out and feels “right”, I’ll give it a try when we can get shooting again.
Doctor Lecter
Well-known member
a good video on youtube , is ben husthwaite fitting a gun to young alfie tibbles its a good starting point !!!
Jonny English
Well-known member
I prefer a muzzle heavy gun, the dt11 is set at about 1/2" in front, the miroku 20 bore is about 1" in front. I like a nice smooth swing.
That is the one I made reference to. Ben advocated adding weight to the stock, but that just did not work for me. He also implied that removing the barrel weights, made the gun handle better for the person he was fitting it to. That did not work for me either. As I said above, it is very much a personal thing and it is most certainly not a "one size fits all" adjustment.
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
I've found that I'm more concerned about how the gun feels at the shoulder.
YMMV of course
YMMV of course
Jonny English
Well-known member
Weight distribution is a massive factor. These days with barrel and stock weights built into the gun, a gun with poor weight distribution can be made to balance on the hinge pin. That doesn't mean though that it handles very well or how you like. I've shot my dt11 for 2-3 years now and have only just found the balance how I really like it. It has got down to the fact that the gun feels better for me with heavy extended chokes rather than the flush. The weight difference is only an ounce or so but right at the end of the barrel it makes quite a difference to the feel and swing.
Will Hewland
Well-known member
On a practical level, I feel strongly that barrel weight contributes to most of the handling characteristic of a gun once it’s mounted, so even chokes will make a difference, particularly as they are the furthest point from the shooter and it’s force x distance folks.
Stock weight alteration is largely for those shooting gun down. As others have said, the gun should feel “between the hands” but more so, during the raising to the shoulder it shouldn’t make one hand or the other work harder (to keep the gun level). It’s all about movement to the shoulder without difficulty or distraction. If the barrel wants to dip as you raise the gun then try some stock weight I would say.
Stock weight alteration is largely for those shooting gun down. As others have said, the gun should feel “between the hands” but more so, during the raising to the shoulder it shouldn’t make one hand or the other work harder (to keep the gun level). It’s all about movement to the shoulder without difficulty or distraction. If the barrel wants to dip as you raise the gun then try some stock weight I would say.
Thing is Will, I have as much weight forward as the slots in the centre rib will allow. (second slot back from the muzzle). The gun feels fine 'between my hands', but I do 5 minutes each day practising my gun mount and ensure that I use BOTH hands to complete the mount. My barrels come up onto my aim point (ceiling/wall) every time. NEVER above or below, but always spot on. I shoot mainly 'gun down', not always FITASC hold, but somewhere in between. As I have aged I find myself pre mounting for a lot of going away or teal targets now, but incomers and crossers, it's gun down. I have a 20 bore CG with 32" barrels, that gun is so muzzle heavy even 2ozs of lead in the stock will not balance it near the pin. However, I shoot that gun very well. In my experience 'barrel dipping' has been due to people using the back hand to lift the gun to shoulder causing the gun to 'see-saw', rather than using BOTH hands, thus keeping the barrels on line at the same time.
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I'm with Will on this one and believe that more weight helps the "dip" in two ways, one being the back hand slowing down (a smidge) and the other being that the perceived extra weight is telling both hands to work a little harder in the lift / mount. The other trick that has helped me is deliberately pointing the front hands index finger at the clay whilst mounting. Less see-sawing and a shorter line to the kill point ensued, but YMMV.
That's exactly what I found after tinkering with weight in the stock. A slight forward bias seems right for CGs, so maybe it's more to do with the Moment of Inertia.
Many thanks for all the replies, it has been interesting reading. I assumed that adding a little weight to the stock to bring the balance point rearward a bit would be the common choice. It seems quite a few prefer a slight bias forward though. I guess as with a lot of shooting set ups it is what works for you and how your gun handles unweighted.
Your LAST sentence sums it all up really, as I said before it is all down to PERSONAL choice. Experiment by all means, but at least be prepared to give any alterations a fair chance. Do NOT be messing with the gun halfway around the layout !
