Lead shot

[balltrap]

Hi, I have been off the shooting scene for a year or two and decided to sell a few guns at my local gun shop, the owner of the shop said there going to ban lead soon ! and your guns are not steel proof so he wants to pay low in order to sell them quick ! ( bollocks ) or am I wrong ?

 

[ColinD]

There's talk of a EU ruling banning lead shot, but I've not seen anything firm about it as yet

 

[balltrap]

Well we better get out of the EU 

 

[Jonny English]

I heard the same the other day, that a lead ban for all hunting was on the way from the EU, how far along it is or entirely how correct I'm not sure. Had a bit of a search and it's looks like one of the EU advisory groups has been asked to prepare a ban proposal. I would say it's only a matter of time and I wouldn't buy a game gun that isn't steel shot proof at the minute. 

 

[Lloyd]

Well we better get out of the EU 

We’re very likely going to follow the EU policy in my opinion. 

Lead is considered a “Severely hazardous substance” and is on the list of Restriction of Hazardous Subsistence, the content of lead (pb) permissible in homogenous materials in CE marked products  is limited to 0.1% by weight. Some materials/producer exempt (until July 2021) eg brass having ~3.5% pb

The proposed UKCA mark will be applied to products sold in the UK and will follow the existing and proposed EU regulations. The CE mark will still apply to products sold in the EU.  

Whilst the shooting market is significant in the UK, the collective size of the European market would mean cartridge manufacturers either make a UK specific product and a EU product, or more likely in my opinion, will for economic reasons if not otherwise for legislative reasons, phase out lead (and plastics) from their product line up. The USA may be the saving grace here. 

By my estimations UK cartridges manufactures generate revenues of about £52M a year, split £18M Gamebore, £18M Hull, £8M Eley Hawk, £8M Lyalvale Express  that’s too small a market for fragmenting the product line up. If lead is forced out of the market with legislation, then lead will be more costly to produce, even though the raw material might fall in price a little. Higher priced lead and cheaper priced steel, market forces will probably determine the adoption rate until it’s abandoned altogether and the laggards catch up. 

Anyway, that’s my guess for what it’s worth

 

[Garwood]

It`s the EU that`s `severely hazardous`......

 

[ColinD]

Next thing will be to ban lead flashing from buildings and church roofs etc due to contaiminated water run off

 

[Charliedog]

Can you make guns steel proof? if not they will become worthless if and when a ban takes effect

 

[Doctor Lecter]

eu rules again       dose Westminster ******* have a say ?      we are doomed !  :O

 

[MartynB]

Can you make guns steel proof? if not they will become worthless if and when a ban takes effect

For  virtually any normal  chambered shotgun , there is a standard steel / plaswad load that can be used . There will be some caveats attached such as the maximum choke that can be used . If for example you buy a new MK38 trap gun there may be a sticker on the barrel that says “not for steel” This is a function of the 3/4 and 1/1 choking .  Taking this down to 1/2 anf 1/2 and the gun would be functional ( but then may have some limitations)  .Eley are selling a biodegradable eco wad  which meets the field requirements of a steel game load .   There are already clay and game loads in steel . High performance “steel proved only shells“  may be another matter , requiring a specific gun . If you shoot a pair of Purdeys, over a game season the cost of using something like Bismuth shouldn’t phase you financially . 
 

I’m not convinced at all about the science , but let’s face it when we leave the EU , we will still comply as we need to be in line with the European Chemicals Agency and the REACH directives to trade . Of course as a nation we will adopt any regulation with vigour , whist from France down through Southern Europe they will see it as more a suggestion that won’t ever get implemented in practice .......  The U.K. , Nordics and Netherlands , never learned to play that game , 

 

[Paul120]

Accidentally quoted and can't remove the box??

 Tried to work out what's going on by looking up what's been written. Initial articals  say that the EU proposal in to align the rest of Europe with basically what's already in place in Scotland. So not even as restricted as England. Several magazine articals and careful journalistsic wording and speculation  later it's turned into a total ban. Who really knows what's going on?

Bit like the steel proof thing there's so much stuff info out there and opinions it's difficult to get a straight forward answer.

As far I have read from Proof house and BASC guidelines this is my take. 

Standard steel can be used in any gun with any choke.  This does limit the shot size and pressures so there is less scope to bridge the performance  gap by increasing shot size to maintain pellet weight (Usually 2 sizes bigger for steel) and load weight to match pellet count to be' as effective as lead loads.  The cartridges that go someway  to replicate the performance of lead for the heavier and larger shot sizes user for say wildfowling  fall into HP steel where the additional proof is required Shot sizes bigger than 4 need choking of no tighter than 1/2 . 

The standard gunsmith advice is a simple catch all. Steel proof and 1/2 choke only. 

Apparently full choke for steel is achieved with lead 1/2 choke so there's no point in going tighter anyway.

My experience with steel is only shooting some DTL  with standard steel  cartridges with the same shot weight and size as lead. They were not very effective at those ranges. 

They would probably be better for shooting closer or face on sporting targets. I didn't try ABT as it would have been a waste of money OT would def be more good luck if theh broke when hit than a certain break.

36g 4 or 5s May work but  Would think quite punishing to shoot.

Not tried HP steel but I have heard that you would need quickly need  new teeth if the normal volumes used for comp were used.

 

[westley]

Hi, I have been off the shooting scene for a year or two and decided to sell a few guns at my local gun shop, the owner of the shop said there going to ban lead soon ! and your guns are not steel proof so he wants to pay low in order to sell them quick ! ( bollocks ) or am I wrong ?

One of your 'local gun shops' has also stopped stocking plastic wadded cartridges too  ????

 

[Garwood]

Given the lighter weight/volume of steel shot,surely the manufacturers could load 22-24 gram loads which would work in lighter game guns etc for normal game shooting .

Or am I missing something?

 

[Paul120]

Given the lighter weight/volume of steel shot,surely the manufacturers could load 22-24 gram loads which would work in lighter game guns etc for normal game shooting .

Or am I missing something?

The effective range would be limited to the point using the same size shot You might as well use a tennis racquet for driven    To keep range the pellets would be a couple fa sizes larger . I suppose it depends on the capacity of the cartridge case. I haven"t worked it out but 2 1/2 would be further restricted I guess?

24g to me seems a bit light anyway especislly when when the accepted norm is 30g to 32g 6s.

 

[balltrap]

Hope nobody tells the EU that you use lead in fishing 

 

[Garwood]

The effective range would be limited to the point using the same size shot You might as well use a tennis racquet for driven    To keep range the pellets would be a couple fa sizes larger . I suppose it depends on the capacity of the cartridge case. I haven"t worked it out but 2 1/2 would be further restricted I guess?

24g to me seems a bit light anyway especislly when when the accepted norm is 30g to 32g 6s.

Only used 32gr 4 steel in 12g and they were far too lively for lightweight guns.Have used a few 25gr steel in 20b and they work to a point...I was just wondering what can be achieved in loads for 6-6.5lb guns in game loads really.....I find 26gr No6 lead works fine...

 

[MartynB]

Hope nobody tells the EU that you use lead in fishing 

I thought that  lead split shot it had been banned for ages in river fishing ?   Certainly the stuff I bought for Grayling trotting a couple of years ago was some sort of a non toxic ?    

 

[Centrepin]

Hope nobody tells the EU that you use lead in fishing 

Unfortunately lead was banned in the 80s except in sizes 8 and smaller. No one has yet come up with anything better to replace it, although there are many "alternatives" available.  Tungsten is popular but expensive. 

Like many now, I use groups of 8s bunched together or strung out but close to achieve the same effect.

Still using legal lead, but in another way.

Oh, and just for the tally books, lead over 1oz can also be legally used, but I can't see us shooting cartridges of 1oz ball or can I

 

[Lloyd]

Lead is a cumulative toxicant which means a trace however small simply doesn’t just go away on its own and each additional trace adds to its predecessor. This over time lead can build up in the body to potentially harmful levels. 

Lead effects brain development along with spinal cord and kidney. There is statistical correlation between IQ lowered with the presence of lead in blood. This greatest impact on young/infant children much more than adult, though adults too suffer related symptoms. 

Lead has been banned in paint since the seventies, and there is a general tightening of the standards. This isn’t just an eu issue. It is global. The US EPA take an increasingly firm stance on lead also as do most of the developed western world and WHO (World Health Organisation)

lead sh*t over water courses (as with plastics) poses a greater risk of entering the water cycle and thus the food chain that lead shot over say pasture. But given the cumulative effects its only a matter of time before lead builds up to a level of concern and that level (5 micrograms per decilitre of blood) is constantly being reviewed and lowered on a global stage. 

While I don’t fancy paying for tungsten (a conflict material under restrictions in the is since 2010 and in the EU from January 2021) or bismuth, equally I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the effects lead may have on my young children and grandchildren.

clearly a tricky situation to navigate for health organisations, government and shooters but one which is inevitable. 

As for Church roofs, I would say for sure there is a real and measurable risk of lead entering the water supply and lead in roofing continues to come under close scrutiny