Lead shot

[David Paul Gag]

 Hello people not been on here for a while but here goes.

3 or 4 months ago a shooting friend of mine who shoots a lot Fitasc in Europe suggested I try  steel so I have about 4000 so far

and must say up to 40 to 45 yds they seem ok after that I must say I  tend to go back to lead but not sure if that's maybe a mental thing

Not bumpy/ bit cheaper not confident after 45yds though

Dave

 

[balltrap]

 Hello people not been on here for a while but here goes.

3 or 4 months ago a shooting friend of mine who shoots a lot Fitasc in Europe suggested I try  steel so I have about 4000 so far

and must say up to 40 to 45 yds they seem ok after that I must say I  tend to go back to lead but not sure if that's maybe a mental thing

Not bumpy/ bit cheaper not confident after 45yds though

Dave

kinetic energy 

 

[ColinD]

I think wonko has succumb to the lead already

 

[balltrap]

once he was diagnosed he was sent to the USA 

 

[westley]

Wes the old lead pipes have a lining on them internally by now and are considered safe for human consumption that is from the water board ! 

I can assure you that the 'service' pipe, that is the pipe from the main to the street 'stopcock' and then from that into the premises are most certainly LEAD. I agree that as problems arise with these pipes that they are being replaced with plastic BUT only after a problem with the lead pipe (usually perforated with age). In my last property, I replaced all of the internal piping with plastic and paid to have a plastic service pipe installed. The plastic service pipe and a new street plastic main stopcock were fitted leaving the old stopcock and service pipe  still connected, the whole assembly was then buried under the footpath. So, although I had paid for a new plastic service pipe to be installed, they simply connected it to the existing lead pipe. My current property has a lead service pipe into the premises, all of the internal pipes have been replaced with copper/plastic, but the water still enters the property through a lead pipe.

kinetic energy 

That's a pop group, isn't it  ?   

 

[jwpzx9r]

I can assure you that the 'service' pipe, that is the pipe from the main to the street 'stopcock' and then from that into the premises are most certainly LEAD.

True that .. our lead service pipe was replaced about twenty years back... the used a plastic one to replace it.

 

[diver682]

I think wonko has succumb to the lead already

It's not the lead it's being Canadian 

 

[Lloyd]

Quick question for all die hard lead fans who think lead isn’t a health issue. Would you let your children/grandchildren eat food using lead cutlery?

Do you think Hexavalent chromium is a health scare myths?

would you choose to live in an asbestos prefab house?

do you think smoking is utterly harmless?

would you lick Edwardian green wallpaper (clue, arsenic/killed Bonaparte)

are you happy with the BPA (phthalates) content in your plastic water pipe contributing to you firing blanks (your weapon, not your shotgun)

do you think government would listen to the pharma, chemical, petroleum, banking, minerals industries who spend around $200billion global each year on lobbying governments to make/maintain laws to their business advantage or listen to a few thousand relatively poor activists?

seriously, this is a matter of well documented scientific facts, not blind faith.

if you believe these are some neafarous activities just to stop you from enjoying yourself of a weekend, then fine. Knock yourself out. But that won’t change fact. It wound change progression. 

History is littered with Luddite thinking that simply are left out in the cold while those who embrace change continue to enjoy their pastimes and the innovations that such change inevitably, eventually brings. We humans are very inventive. We have been solving technical challenges for centuries, millenniums even. This lead thing is noting more than a blip. Ignoring it won’t help or hinder the inevitable changes 

 

[Charliedog]

im a bit slow on the uptake but from memory lead was in the periodic table, so we dont make lead just mine it or whatever, so we are not producing more just moving it from one place to another, so wheres the problem with that

 

[Lloyd]

We also mine uranium which is on the periodic table. would you want some uranium redistributed to you tea cup?

 

[ColinD]

We're not shooting Uranium out of shotguns as yet, although the military has in the bigger stuff, although probably not the best alternative to lead for us

 

[jwpzx9r]

For the hard of thinking on here... we are talking about the effect of the distribution of lead shot from shotgun cartridges! This lead shot is not being widely distributed across the land it is being used in very localised areas and its distribution can be regulated. The chances of the population at large ever coming into contact with this shot is very remote indeed. Then we are getting suggestions about people actually eating with lead cutlery to exemplify the dangers the lead shot from a shot gun cartridge poses ... and further ranting about other metal ions which are not part of the agenda ??

I again ask the question how does lead from shot from a shotgun cartridge find its way into the water drunk or the food eaten by the general public? It can only be by the lead being dissolved by ground water... and as has been stated lead is almost insoluble in water at STP . In short the danger to the general public caused by lead shot is negligible... on the other hand wide spread pollution by industries, transport etc goes on unchecked.

 

[Lloyd]

How does lead in solder find its way into water drink or food? How does it even find its way into the bloodstream of workers in the electronics industry when the lead was part of a homogeneous material?

perhaps thinking is hard? But coming to terms with the inevitability appears even harder.

maybe we could ask Gamebore to make shot from depleted uranium?  Would be hard hitting! Of course this is not part of the agenda.

the agenda is either accepting the likelihood of lead being banned on health basis, (irrespective of industrial pollution (which has been progressively been legislated against and going  much checked) and moving on with life. Be that enjoying the evolved sport or sitting home ranting about how some tree huggers took away the toys while industry gets away with murder, because, well just because right?

again lead or any other mineral does not need to be soluble to be carried in water. Lead like other mineral particulate (in the order of <0.005mm for example), micro plastics and even human cells can and are carried in ‘suspension’ 

it is scientists that  have demonstrated the effect of lead on brain, spinal cord, kidney and liver development. Their advice taken ultimately by the House of Lords and/or European Parliament (Brexit it otherwise, the UK will follow suit for the foreseeable future). The same happens almost all over the world. Even China with their alleged ‘can do whatever they like and don’t follow health and safety rules like us muppets have to’ actually do follow RoHS, REACh, ISO1400, ISO9001 etc because their European and US customers demand this from them. The commercial pressures simply being passed along the supply chain.

so, personally I see little escaping the idea that lead shot will disappear. For sure we can put up arguments, but they will not be listened to without evidence. Robust evidence. Not anecdotes or questioning. Not spurious counterclaims or unfounded pseudo science, but actual scientific research, repeatable experiments and validated evidence  to unequivocally demonstrate that lead... doesn’t just find its way into water/food but does no harm, because I’m quite sure the weight of evidence to say their exists a risk, that risk will be statistically balanced against the economic impact of allowing lead to remain or removing it. If lead is calculated to statistically cost more in health care than the economic impact on the £50M UK cartridge industry (lets just assume we’re out of the EU and making our own laws as we’re so often promised).

bear in mind lead ingested (or other substances) can effect the way DNA behaves in two subsequent generations, the long term impact on health care if greater than the cost to the economics of shooting, and I believe we are safe to assume that the industry will adapt to steel, bismuth, tungsten (risky!) or whatever, then fighting to retain lead seems to me to be a lost cause. For sure there’ll be casualties in this. Shotguns not steel proofed will either need to be reproofed, re-barrelled  or scrapped. 

I see a greater problem for shooting in burying our heads in the sand rather than openly and actively embracing the change, taking the lead (no pun intended) actually and driving the change forward positively would in my opinion help towards saving shooting from its other threats as the industry and those who enjoy the pastime demonstrate exemplary responsibility towards ourselves, others and the environment (irrespective of we believe it to be hogwash or not)

for the record, I do appreciate quite a few of my comments are somewhat inflammatory. I really don’t want to offend anyone but I accept that is what I might do by my choice of language, so I apologise for any offence I cause. I can assure you I’m not anti-lead or  anti-shooting and I’ll continue to shoot lead shot through my steel proofed barrels in defiant hypocrisy until such laws are passed or a movement of change by shooting industry is underway whereupon I will accept the changes and wholeheartedly get on board in the interests of the “greater good” but of the environment, but of shooting

 

[jwpzx9r]

How does lead in solder find its way into water drink or food? How does it even find its way into the bloodstream of workers in the electronics industry when the lead was part of a homogeneous material?

perhaps thinking is hard? But coming to terms with the inevitability appears even harder.

maybe we could ask Gamebore to make shot from depleted uranium?  Would be hard hitting! Of course this is not part of the agenda.

the agenda is either accepting the likelihood of lead being banned on health basis, (irrespective of industrial pollution (which has been progressively been legislated against and going  much checked) and moving on with life. Be that enjoying the evolved sport or sitting home ranting about how some tree huggers took away the toys while industry gets away with murder, because, well just because right?

again lead or any other mineral does not need to be soluble to be carried in water. Lead like other mineral particulate (in the order of <0.005mm for example), micro plastics and even human cells can and are carried in ‘suspension’ 

it is scientists that  have demonstrated the effect of lead on brain, spinal cord, kidney and liver development. Their advice taken ultimately by the House of Lords and/or European Parliament (Brexit it otherwise, the UK will follow suit for the foreseeable future). The same happens almost all over the world. Even China with their alleged ‘can do whatever they like and don’t follow health and safety rules like us muppets have to’ actually do follow RoHS, REACh, ISO1400, ISO9001 etc because their European and US customers demand this from them. The commercial pressures simply being passed along the supply chain.

so, personally I see little escaping the idea that lead shot will disappear. For sure we can put up arguments, but they will not be listened to without evidence. Robust evidence. Not anecdotes or questioning. Not spurious counterclaims or unfounded pseudo science, but actual scientific research, repeatable experiments and validated evidence  to unequivocally demonstrate that lead... doesn’t just find its way into water/food but does no harm, because I’m quite sure the weight of evidence to say their exists a risk, that risk will be statistically balanced against the economic impact of allowing lead to remain or removing it. If lead is calculated to statistically cost more in health care than the economic impact on the £50M UK cartridge industry (lets just assume we’re out of the EU and making our own laws as we’re so often promised).

bear in mind lead ingested (or other substances) can effect the way DNA behaves in two subsequent generations, the long term impact on health care if greater than the cost to the economics of shooting, and I believe we are safe to assume that the industry will adapt to steel, bismuth, tungsten (risky!) or whatever, then fighting to retain lead seems to me to be a lost cause. For sure there’ll be casualties in this. Shotguns not steel proofed will either need to be reproofed, re-barrelled  or scrapped. 

I see a greater problem for shooting in burying our heads in the sand rather than openly and actively embracing the change, taking the lead (no pun intended) actually and driving the change forward positively would in my opinion help towards saving shooting from its other threats as the industry and those who enjoy the pastime demonstrate exemplary responsibility towards ourselves, others and the environment (irrespective of we believe it to be hogwash or not)

for the record, I do appreciate quite a few of my comments are somewhat inflammatory. I really don’t want to offend anyone but I accept that is what I might do by my choice of language, so I apologise for any offence I cause. I can assure you I’m not anti-lead or  anti-shooting and I’ll continue to shoot lead shot through my steel proofed barrels in defiant hypocrisy until such laws are passed or a movement of change by shooting industry is underway whereupon I will accept the changes and wholeheartedly get on board in the interests of the “greater good” but of the environment, but of shooting

Sorry bud you are losing it a bit. The question remains how does lead contamination from lead shot from shotgun cartridges relate to any form of contamination related to industrial processes? The major lead contamination caused by lead in shotgun cartridges is most definitely to be found in the manufacturing of the shot in the first instance... for which HSE restrictions and safe guards are already in place. All of the processes you highlight about lead contamination in industrial situations are not applicable to likely contamination of the general public due to lead shot being distributed in very localised areas of land  and in some situations leads shot can be reclaimed. As with industry there should not be a one size fits all remedy to this question. Where an operator can show they are actively containing contaminants there should be license to operate on that basis. 

 

[Centrepin]

How does lead in solder find its way into water drink or food? How does it even find its way into the bloodstream of workers in the electronics industry when the lead was part of a homogeneous material?

perhaps thinking is hard? But coming to terms with the inevitability appears even harder.

maybe we could ask Gamebore to make shot from depleted uranium?  Would be hard hitting! Of course this is not part of the agenda.

the agenda is either accepting the likelihood of lead being banned on health basis, (irrespective of industrial pollution (which has been progressively been legislated against and going  much checked) and moving on with life. Be that enjoying the evolved sport or sitting home ranting about how some tree huggers took away the toys while industry gets away with murder, because, well just because right?

again lead or any other mineral does not need to be soluble to be carried in water. Lead like other mineral particulate (in the order of <0.005mm for example), micro plastics and even human cells can and are carried in ‘suspension’ 

it is scientists that  have demonstrated the effect of lead on brain, spinal cord, kidney and liver development. Their advice taken ultimately by the House of Lords and/or European Parliament (Brexit it otherwise, the UK will follow suit for the foreseeable future). The same happens almost all over the world. Even China with their alleged ‘can do whatever they like and don’t follow health and safety rules like us muppets have to’ actually do follow RoHS, REACh, ISO1400, ISO9001 etc because their European and US customers demand this from them. The commercial pressures simply being passed along the supply chain.

so, personally I see little escaping the idea that lead shot will disappear. For sure we can put up arguments, but they will not be listened to without evidence. Robust evidence. Not anecdotes or questioning. Not spurious counterclaims or unfounded pseudo science, but actual scientific research, repeatable experiments and validated evidence  to unequivocally demonstrate that lead... doesn’t just find its way into water/food but does no harm, because I’m quite sure the weight of evidence to say their exists a risk, that risk will be statistically balanced against the economic impact of allowing lead to remain or removing it. If lead is calculated to statistically cost more in health care than the economic impact on the £50M UK cartridge industry (lets just assume we’re out of the EU and making our own laws as we’re so often promised).

bear in mind lead ingested (or other substances) can effect the way DNA behaves in two subsequent generations, the long term impact on health care if greater than the cost to the economics of shooting, and I believe we are safe to assume that the industry will adapt to steel, bismuth, tungsten (risky!) or whatever, then fighting to retain lead seems to me to be a lost cause. For sure there’ll be casualties in this. Shotguns not steel proofed will either need to be reproofed, re-barrelled  or scrapped. 

I see a greater problem for shooting in burying our heads in the sand rather than openly and actively embracing the change, taking the lead (no pun intended) actually and driving the change forward positively would in my opinion help towards saving shooting from its other threats as the industry and those who enjoy the pastime demonstrate exemplary responsibility towards ourselves, others and the environment (irrespective of we believe it to be hogwash or not)

for the record, I do appreciate quite a few of my comments are somewhat inflammatory. I really don’t want to offend anyone but I accept that is what I might do by my choice of language, so I apologise for any offence I cause. I can assure you I’m not anti-lead or  anti-shooting and I’ll continue to shoot lead shot through my steel proofed barrels in defiant hypocrisy until such laws are passed or a movement of change by shooting industry is underway whereupon I will accept the changes and wholeheartedly get on board in the interests of the “greater good” but of the environment, but of shooting

I've got to say, I don't like almost everything you wrote, but i respect your right to it. I also unfortunately think, there's more than a ring of truth to it. Lead will inevitably go the same as it has for Angling. We can accept it or fight to prolong it. Personally I'll fight to prolong its use as I can see no decent alternative, yet.

Tungsten in fishing is now available in the form of tungsten putty which although it's expensive is easily reused and stored. If memory serves its around £2.00 plus for an ounce. Unless I loose it, it lasts several seasons.

 

[Lloyd]

Losing what exactly?

have I said that it is proven that lead shot over land does in fact enter into drinking water or food?

i don’t recall saying such things. 

Furthermore, I actually brought into question the validity of lead in solder is banned and I asked the question how does that enter into the human body? 

What I have said is this:-

lead does not need to be soluble to be digested. That it. That’s all there is to that statement. 

Lead is a scientifically proven poison with know effects.  That’s it. That’s all this is being said.

that the UK will for the foreseeable future continue to follow EU guidelines. I am currently working through this very process I’m my day job, so have recent experience of this being true. Again. That’s all. Nothing more being claimed here about that. 

Finally, I am of the OPINION that as shooters, the cartridge manufacturers, Clay and trap manufacturers, grounds owners, representative groups such as BASC, CPSA et.al would be better placed as a whole to accept the inevitable changes (industry is already demonstrated that they are) embracing the inevitable changes and present the sport in better light and help enable shooting to fight off other threats. 

If we lose game shooting, I’m of the opinion that shooting will come under significant commercial threat.  

If we have a shot gun owner losing the plot and doing harm to the public, shooting will come under restrictions. 

Collectively, if we as a group show we are forward thinking, consider the values of other citizens and embrace and even pioneer change, I believe this would put us in a better light. 

We cant deny the evidence that does exist. But waffling on about evidence that doesn’t exist I feel won’t help us much to counter those who would like to see shooting gone all together. 

I don’t think anyone would accept a defence of wife beating is ok because we’re not as bad as Ted Bundy. Equally, exclaiming industry as the real criminal and how we would have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for those meddling kids; I don’t think onlookers will give a Scooby-Do.

all that said, this is as real a concern for me as it is other shooters. Therefore I think I should make myself better informed. 

Mom fortunate enough to work with a professor of pathology and a number of post doc researchers who will be able to answer some of these questions. One of my colleges, a physicist who worked for the met office might be able to answer how minerals such as lead could enter into water courses. That said, if that is proven to be the case, it doesn’t necessarily answer how it might or might not enter the food chain 

I've got to say, I don't like almost everything you wrote, but i respect your right to it. I also unfortunately think, there's more than a ring of truth to it. Lead will inevitably go the same as it has for Angling. We can accept it or fight to prolong it. Personally I'll fight to prolong its use as I can see no decent alternative, yet.

Tungsten in fishing is now available in the form of tungsten putty which although it's expensive is easily reused and stored. If memory serves its around £2.00 plus for an ounce. Unless I loose it, it lasts several seasons.

Honestly... I don’t like what I’m writing either!

My heart says fight it also

My head says embrace it

Oh, and tungsten being a heavy metal. I wouldn’t be surprised if that too came under pressure in the future too.

sadly we live in a world where governance wants to wrap us all up in cotton wool.

we have machines that are made safe with guarding to the point where they’re unusable in any way but in the most dangerous of fashion and it only continues to get “better” (worse)

 

[westley]

Lioyd, how many old English guns do you own   ?

 

[jwpzx9r]

Losing what exactly?

have I said that it is proven that lead shot over land does in fact enter into drinking water or food?

i don’t recall saying such things. 

Furthermore, I actually brought into question the validity of lead in solder is banned and I asked the question how does that enter into the human body? 

What I have said is this:-

lead does not need to be soluble to be digested. That it. That’s all there is to that statement. 

Lead is a scientifically proven poison with know effects.  That’s it. That’s all this is being said.

that the UK will for the foreseeable future continue to follow EU guidelines. I am currently working through this very process I’m my day job, so have recent experience of this being true. Again. That’s all. Nothing more being claimed here about that. 

Finally, I am of the OPINION that as shooters, the cartridge manufacturers, Clay and trap manufacturers, grounds owners, representative groups such as BASC, CPSA et.al would be better placed as a whole to accept the inevitable changes (industry is already demonstrated that they are) embracing the inevitable changes and present the sport in better light and help enable shooting to fight off other threats. 

If we lose game shooting, I’m of the opinion that shooting will come under significant commercial threat.  

If we have a shot gun owner losing the plot and doing harm to the public, shooting will come under restrictions. 

Collectively, if we as a group show we are forward thinking, consider the values of other citizens and embrace and even pioneer change, I believe this would put us in a better light. 

We cant deny the evidence that does exist. But waffling on about evidence that doesn’t exist I feel won’t help us much to counter those who would like to see shooting gone all together. 

I don’t think anyone would accept a defence of wife beating is ok because we’re not as bad as Ted Bundy. Equally, exclaiming industry as the real criminal and how we would have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for those meddling kids; I don’t think onlookers will give a Scooby-Do.

all that said, this is as real a concern for me as it is other shooters. Therefore I think I should make myself better informed. 

Mom fortunate enough to work with a professor of pathology and a number of post doc researchers who will be able to answer some of these questions. One of my colleges, a physicist who worked for the met office might be able to answer how minerals such as lead could enter into water courses. That said, if that is proven to be the case, it doesn’t necessarily answer how it might or might not enter the food chain 

Honestly... I don’t like what I’m writing either!

My heart says fight it also

My head says embrace it

Oh, and tungsten being a heavy metal. I wouldn’t be surprised if that too came under pressure in the future too.

sadly we live in a world where governance wants to wrap us all up in cotton wool.

we have machines that are made safe with guarding to the point where they’re unusable in any way but in the most dangerous of fashion and it only continues to get “better” (worse)

-Do you own a car ? Do you drive your car? If the answer to any one of those two questions is yes you do more harm to the environment and human health... not just locally but world wide than any number of shotgun cartridges you have shot or will shoot! The pollution and health hazards produced in the manufacture of the car and its components and the fuel and the by products combustion produces far out way any amount of harm lead shot from shotgun cartridges does ... and yet I bet you don't, like any car driver, feel on bit of remorse ! Don't talk about pollution and health hazards unless you are willing to take every factor into account ... smoking? Why has the act not been banned fullstop and tobacco products with it? People actually die in their thousands every year through the effects of smoking cigarettes and yet the practice goes on . I repeat lead from shotgun cartridges is an easy target and more importantly it gives governments the chance to control firearms. It is a total red herring and it is being used to manipulate gun use pure and simple. There are far greater health hazards that could be hit that are far more wide ranging thatn lead shot from cartridge shells ... but they are not  acceptable targets fullstop !

edit

Pollution matters so much that governments are quite willing to profit from those who can afford to pay the price... it does not stop pollution but there is a buck to be made.  Perhaps a levy on the price of cartridges for those who are willing to pay ?  :lol:  One only has to look at city's who impose a charge to take a vehicle into a town ... if you can afford it the pollution is dandy carry on ! 

 

[Lloyd]

I don’t entirely disagree with but do on some points.

yes. I drive a car. It’s a dirty nitros-oxide, carbon-monoxide diesel, carbon-dioxide, carcinogenic soot particulate polluting diesel . By 2050 my car will most likely be electric if not sooner, by choice or by lack of choice.

You know... Those new electric cars with their massive global supply chain carbon footprint  and southeast Asian built batteries containing too dangerous chemicals for manufacturing anywhere else, with chemical burns, seen first hand by me in my cousins husbands lithium ion battery plant in Indonesia. Quite shocking I can tell you!

still... we can go “carbon neutral” and plant some trees which someone will cut down to make way for, oh I dunno... maybe a nuclear power plant or something 

but you know what, the auto industry is changing. legislation and social pressures to buy electric mean the automakers have to build electric or find themselves uncompetitive and irrelevant. Look at how VW had to change. Look at how Mercedes are changing 

“The German luxury carmaker is also spending £8.5billion to develop a raft of electric cars so it can boast a carbon neutral car fleet by 2039 and to avoid hefty fines by regulators.”

I also fly, as does my “environmental consultant” friend. He does so globally on a weekly basis, advising companies like Nike, google, Pepsi, on how to be greener. He tells me my carnivorous diet results in more CO2 in the atmosphere than my car. 

Personally I believe government is a non profit organisation that may or may not (I believe it does) aid profit making organisations, but the government collect taxes and spends it (usually very poorly in my opinion) on public service. Like the NHS. On things like medicating for lead poisoning perhaps (sarcasm intended)

but as has been said, this is all getting a bit off topic. 

So, I’ll bow out of the debate now as we’re going round and round in circles and just reiterate that my view isn’t some tree hugging anti shooting, lead opposing rant, rather it’s my opinion based on my experiences within manufacturing and biology that influence my view that lead will be banned regardless of our protests, unfounded rants or scientifically robust arguments and I believe we as a group along with manufacturers of the products we use and lobbyist groups would be better to focus on an environmentally, socially and scientifically acceptable solution and we all continue to enjoy our sport for as long as possible. 

How hard can it  really be? It’s not complicated really. We use some tubes in which we use a rapidly expanding gas to expel some product of some size and some mass over some distance at some velocity with some acceleration/deceleration at some moving breakable object thrown by some machine and we miss. Well, I miss. 

For sure the experience will change. Perhaps it will become more costly. Perhaps less so. Perhaps it will become easier, god knows how many people blame the course setters, wind, sun, badly timed fart... so why not shot, clay, gun? 

Shooting has already changed. Paper case to plastic. Fibre wads to plastic and trending back to fiber. Clay material have changed and traps have gotten faster and more versatile. We still shoot. We will carry on shooting. Some might not like it and go golfing instead. Some will persevere. New people will come and will not know the old ways. Some may come who stayed away, attracted to the new ways of the sport by its more appealing credentials.

life goes on and progress will continue unabated. There will always be as there has always been, innovators and laggards, optimism and pessimism, pioneers and Luddites and there will always be change. It is inevitable. It is relentless. It is what humans do

 

[Lloyd]

Lioyd, how many old English guns do you own   ?

None. My guns are new, steel proofed. 

id like to own an old English Purdey. Mind you if I did, I expect I’d have to hang it up and buy a new one. I expect if I could afford an old Purdey then I could probably afford a new one. Failing that I could probably afford to shoot bismuth. Or if I was wise I’d take some of my money and invest it in a munitions company that we’re embracing change.

of course not all old English guns are priceless Purdey’s. Some are fifty quid side by sides. If I owned one and it was rendered obsolete, I’m sure my much more expensive Blaser or browning would suffice. 

Then again, I might fall on hard times and have to buy a £500 Kofs. Then again is times go really hard id have to question if my spending money on shooting is something my family could afford for me to do at all.

anyway. I bleat on. 

No. I don’t own any old English guns