Measuring the speed of different cartridges

[Davy_B]

I never even consider the speed of a cartridge, should I ?????? what difference to my shooting will it make?

probably none to be fair . if you are used to a certain cartridge stick with it . i personally like a fast cartridge as you have to give the clay marginally less lead and they smash the clay to pieces when they hit which gives me a little psychological boost to see 

 

[EdSolomons]

It makes no difference to your lead...

 

[jwpzx9r]

probably none to be fair . if you are used to a certain cartridge stick with it . i personally like a fast cartridge as you have to give the clay marginally less lead and they smash the clay to pieces when they hit which gives me a little psychological boost to see 

On Sunday I was shooting in a comp with just about the cheapest cartridges available down here Jocker LA28 @ €160 per thousand... I have not the foggiest what the speed of the shot is BUT I can assure you there was not enough left to see of the clays I was hitting. So well were they being broken that very experienced shooters, shooting way more expensive cartridges were picking the empty cases out of the bin to see what they were... problem for me was the ones I did not hit ... which was nothing whatsoever to do with the cartridges I was using. As to the lead thing cack it will make no difference unless you are artistic enough to make a consistent change of a few inches every time you shoot.

 

[Davy_B]

It makes no difference to your lead...

it physically has to .

i dont know what the slowest cartridge is but i picked fiocchi f blacks as they are a common cartridge used.  im sure there are a lot slower out there 

comparing them,  your a Hull cartridge man and the Hull sovereign parcours according to the hull website is at 1600 fps or 487 m/s right ? 

and the fiocchi FBlack according to their website  is clocking in at 1246 fps or  380 m/s  

so i was shooting OT yesterday . the clays are set to land at 75m away from trap and can be thrown at up to 110mph according to the ISSF website 

so say you hit the clay at 50m ( second barrel) away that takes the Hull 0.10 seconds to get there and the F black 0.13

assuming the clay is slowed down from 110mph  to around 75mph from air drag etc that is 3.4 meters per second its travelling or 3400 cm per second that means by the time the shot leaves your gun the clay will have traveled 340cm / 3.4metres before the hull hits it and will have travelled 442cm / 4.4 metres before the fiocchi hits it . thats a metre in the difference id say that a big difference in lead . even if its a third of that depending on the angle of the clay etc its still over a foot and it would put you off 

N.B

i understand thats an extreme case fast left or right winger in Olympic trap and it doesn't matter a toss if you are used to a cartridge because you will be able to judge it from habit but if you are going from a very fast to a very slow cartridge it will most definitely put you off . i agree in certain diciplines there is no noticeable differences because you are much closer to the clay and it is travelling slower.

 

[Darkside]

it physically has to .

i dont know what the slowest cartridge is but i picked fiocchi f blacks as they are a common cartridge used.  im sure there are a lot slower out there 

comparing them,  your a Hull cartridge man and the Hull sovereign parcours according to the hull website is at 1600 fps or 487 m/s right ? 

and the fiocchi FBlack according to their website  is clocking in at 1246 fps or  380 m/s  

so i was shooting OT yesterday . the clays are set to land at 75m away from trap and can be thrown at up to 110mph according to the ISSF website 

so say you hit the clay at 50m ( second barrel) away that takes the Hull 0.10 seconds to get there and the F black 0.13

assuming the clay is slowed down from 110mph  to around 75mph from air drag etc that is 3.4 meters per second its travelling or 3400 cm per second that means by the time the shot leaves your gun the clay will have traveled 340cm / 3.4metres before the hull hits it and will have travelled 442cm / 4.4 metres before the fiocchi hits it . thats a metre in the difference id say that a big difference in lead . even if its a third of that depending on the angle of the clay etc its still over a foot and it would put you off 

N.B

i understand thats an extreme case fast left or right winger in Olympic trap and it doesn't matter a toss if you are used to a cartridge because you will be able to judge it from habit but if you are going from a very fast to a very slow cartridge it will most definitely put you off . i agree in certain diciplines there is no noticeable differences because you are much closer to the clay and it is travelling slower.

Davy, I don't know where your getting your figures from...but they are waaaaay off!!! 

OT targets travel 76m, they ain't going anywhere near 110mph!!! ABT targets are going 56mph to go 75m...you do the math!!!

Hull Parcours ain't going anywhere near 1600!!! I've seen the chrono results from an Italian cartridge manufacturer who tested Hull/Gamebore/Express along side their own through the factory chrono...the speeds claimed by uk ?? manufacturers were all exaggerated!!! 

 

[Will Hewland]

Until downrange speed can be measured, it's all a bit of a guess, but it sure ain't a big deal I'm sure.

 

[Davy_B]

Davy, I don't know where your getting your figures from...but they are waaaaay off!!! 

OT targets travel 76m, they ain't going anywhere near 110mph!!! ABT targets are going 56mph to go 75m...you do the math!!!

Hull Parcours ain't going anywhere near 1600!!! I've seen the chrono results from an Italian cartridge manufacturer who tested Hull/Gamebore/Express along side their own through the factory chrono...the speeds claimed by uk ?? manufacturers were all exaggerated!!! 

The speeds were from the issf website it said a maximum of 110mph  . Thought they were bull tbh . I did say 75m though . 

And ya i suspected the speeds from the english ones were exaggerated . I know at the end of the day you probably wont lose a bird because of it but you would probably chip instead of smash the clay and thats enough to plant the seed of doubt  

 

[chippy]

In real terms your 1 meter of difference is probably around 6 inches.

 

[schmokinn]

In real terms your 1 meter of difference is probably around 6 inches.

That must be a female perspective  :lol:

 

[Jim Wheeler]

That must be a female perspective  :lol:

 

[chippy]

That must be a female perspective  :lol:

Isn't everything

 

[Jim Wheeler]

Try using subsonics, but without prior warning,! makes no real difference to lead, just quieter. more of a problem is past 45 yards or so, as falling velocity and strong wind make more difference than initial variation of velocity.

 

[EdSolomons]

Feel free to run as many numbers as you like but seeing approx 6000 clays a week and having done blind tests with all manner of shells over the years I can categorically tell you it does NOT make a difference.

 

[Davy_B]

Feel free to run as many numbers as you like but seeing approx 6000 clays a week and having done blind tests with all manner of shells over the years I can categorically tell you it does NOT make a difference.

To be fair you'd know better than me . But can i ask have you never ever noticed a difference of any kind even a small one between different cartridges . 

 

[EdSolomons]

Not with speeds no. We actually did a blind test with a long crosser and the "fastest" and "slowest" (except sub sonics) and lead pictures were identical. Recoil can be noticed but I suspect that down range they all even out to much of a muchness.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Davy_B said

"The speeds were from the issf website it said a maximum of 110mph  . Thought they were bull tbh . I did say 75m though . 

And ya i suspected the speeds from the english ones were exaggerated . I know at the end of the day you probably wont lose a bird because of it but you would probably chip instead of smash the clay and thats enough to plant the seed of doubt    "

I have done a  rough calculation for an OT speed target which is actually 110kph or 30.55m/s and the difference in lead for that sort of target at 30yds is about 5 inches near as damn it on a straight crossing target 15m in front of you and assuming it takes 7/10 of a second to make the shot after calling the target. But riddle me this there is a finite time in which a shooter can make he shot... and it is not dependent on the speed of the cartridge! If the best you can manage as a response time is say 1 second then the target will have travelled 30.55 m so when you take your shot with either fast or slow you are trying to imagine a distance of about 6 inches difference in lead when the target is ripping across the sky... personally I just don't see it.

one other thing to remember is a faster moving object will slow faster than a slower moving object of the same mass and size. Don't ask about down range figures I have no idea but it is significant and my calculation did not take this into account.

 

[Jim Wheeler]

I have done a  rough calculation for an OT speed target which is actually 110kph or 30.55m/s and the difference in lead for that sort of target at 30yds is about 5 inches near as damn it on a straight crossing target 15m in front of you and assuming it takes 7/10 of a second to make the shot after calling the target. But riddle me this there is a finite time in which a shooter can make he shot... and it is not dependent on the speed of the cartridge! If the best you can manage as a response time is say 1 second then the target will have travelled 30.55 m so when you take your shot with either fast or slow you are trying to imagine a distance of about 6 inches difference in lead when the target is ripping across the sky... personally I just don't see it.

one other thing to remember is a faster moving object will slow faster than a slower moving object of the same mass and size. Don't ask about down range figures I have no idea but it is significant.

About right , , this taken from the article below ,;

Though rounder is better, we still have a problem aerodynamically; the round ball gives us a miserably poor return for increased velocity and recoil. Consider the horrid flight characteristics of #8 lead shot as published by Lyman: nearly half of our muzzle velocity has vanished by the time we hit 40 yards. A 1220 fps load of #8 shot has only 665 fps left at 40 yards.

interesting read, which is as i see it from a long time shooting,

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotshell_ballistics.htm

 

[Wonko the Sane]

one other thing to remember is a faster moving object will slow faster than a slower moving object of the same mass and size. Don't ask about down range figures I have no idea but it is significant and my calculation did not take this into account.

For identical objects velocity lose is identical at equal speeds.  The faster may lose V faster initially but as equiv speeds are reached the loss will be the same.  But the faster one will always be faster.

 

[jwpzx9r]

For identical objects velocity lose is identical at equal speeds.  The faster may lose V faster initially but as equiv speeds are reached the loss will be the same.  But the faster one will always be faster.

Don't doubt that at all Charlie... That is why I added my caveat re down range speed. I know the reasons but I am not about to BS or pluck figures out of the air. I would however be interesting to actually know what the deceleration rates for two different velocity cartridges are though soooo if anybody out there actually has them is there any real significant difference in say a cartridge that has a velocity 10 - 20 % greater than another ?

I for my own part though have to say that the obvious real advantage of the faster cartridge is the ability to break targets at greater range and the fact that with a faster pellet velocity you may be able to break a target with fewer pellets... that in itself could justify paying the large sums of money the cartridge mfrs want for their product. I have however talked to trap shooters who actually believe that they can shoot clays earlier just by using a faster velocity cartridge... how does that work then if it takes you 8/10 of a second to get your gun to the target that is where you can shoot the damn thing  

 

[ips]

Imo speed is no big issue, you get used to a cartridge which is why a bulk buy of same brand is advisable (if your serious) for me the important thing is consistency. If a manufacturer cannot produce a load with consistent speed then that in itself is enough for me to question the quality of components and the implementation or rather lack of it of any quality control.