Modern Cartridge development

[Salopian]

Those of you who have been shooting for a while may like to comment!

Do you think that modern cartridges are considerably better than say 30 years ago?

I can remember quite a few classics, Kent Champions , Winchester Silvers, Winchester Blues, Winchester Trap AA,

Gamebore Patriots etc.

We now read that Clever hand cut every wad individually to ensure that they open uniformly, Black Gold &  Hull Sovereigns have very fast claimed velocities.

Do you think that we have improved our cartridges noticeably or do you think it may be salesmanship? 

 

[ips]

Ooh this is a very intresting question indeed pete.

I didnt do any patterning etc in the 80s so I cannot compare from a technical angle.

I would consider myself a better shooter 20yrs ago than I am now but I doubt cartridges had anything to do with it. I will stick my neck out and say modern loads are softer and more consistent but I have nothing really to substantiate that.

 

[Bryn12]

Those of you who have been shooting for a while may like to comment!

Do you think that modern cartridges are considerably better than say 30 years ago?

I can remember quite a few classics, Kent Champions , Winchester Silvers, Winchester Blues, Winchester Trap AA,

Gamebore Patriots etc.

We now read that Clever hand cut every wad individually to ensure that they open uniformly, Black Gold &  Hull Sovereigns have very fast claimed velocities.

Do you think that we have improved our cartridges noticeably or do you think it may be salesmanship? 

jeez, you mean they have some poor old dear sitting there with a pair of scissors  :swoon:

can't really comment as I last use shotguns about 35yrs ago, however I will say they burn a hell of a lot cleaner.

 

[PhilS]

30 yrs ago I shot .22 match and didn't shoot 12 bore until about 20 years ago.  

All I can remember is that cartridges were thumpy, if I recall correctly more so than those I shoot now but memory can be a strange thing.

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

Am with Ips on this one more consistency,speed but without the recoil that perhaps was more apparent a few years ago.

 

[ips]

But judt reslised up to early 90s we were shooting 32g so I wonder if the comparison before that is relevent, just a thought to confuse matters.

 

[PhilS]

But judt reslised up to early 90s we were shooting 32g so I wonder if the comparison before that is relevent, just a thought to confuse matters.

Good point.

Btw - whisky is it?  "But judt reslised "

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

But judt reslised up to early 90s we were shooting 32g so I wonder if the comparison before that is relevent, just a thought to confuse matters.

Was using 32g white golds at the Essex masters on the longer stuff along side 28g  black golds and other then the sound it was difficult to differentiate between the two although my Miroooook does come in just a tad under 10lbs so may notice more used in a game gun!!

 

[ips]

Ha

no on second sauvignon but that doesnt count its only got grapes in you know

 

[PhilS]

Can't do white.  Now a Black Shiraz goes down far too easily...

Thread drift, sorry Peter.

 

[ips]

Was using 32g white golds at the Essex masters on the longer stuff along side 28g  black golds and other then the sound it was difficult to differentiate between the two although my Miroooook does come in just a tad under 10lbs so may notice more used in a game gun!!

interesting shaun, been years and years since I shot 32 so cant compare modern 32 v 28 but I can believe it as I cant tell much difference between some 24 v 28 maybe thats further proof of modern being better ?

 

[ips]

Psst

arent these sensible discussions novel.

 

[maddmatt]

Interesting question...

Patriots way too thumpy, express super comps used to be one of the smoothest shells, then they changed the power and became punchy. On the balance of things I don't think shells have improved per se, but the technology to make them has improved and has reduced variance. Looking at the shells available now there seems to be three distinct levels, high end, high velocity shells, mid range shells like White Golds, Pro Ones etc and low cost (relatively) shells.

We have all experienced issues with shells and we all have our favourites, I have found White Golds, Pro One DTL 300's, Eley Superbs and Fblacks to be very consistent and smooth, not tried every shell yet but ainwould shoot those at any clay.

 

[PhilS]

interesting shaun, been years and years since I shot 32 so cant compare modern 32 v 28 but I can believe it as I cant tell much difference between some 24 v 28 maybe thats further proof of modern being better ?

I think this goes to show how we all feel recoil differently.  I can definitely tell the difference between 24s & 28s in all the shells I have tried so far.  Granted not as many as most of you guys (& girls), but a few.

Or maybe the difference would be less noticeable on 'high end' shells?

 

[Hamster]

Those of you who have been shooting for a while may like to comment!

Do you think that modern cartridges are considerably better than say 30 years ago?

I can remember quite a few classics, Kent Champions , Winchester Silvers, Winchester Blues, Winchester Trap AA,

Gamebore Patriots etc.

We now read that Clever hand cut every wad individually to ensure that they open uniformly, Black Gold &  Hull Sovereigns have very fast claimed velocities.

Do you think that we have improved our cartridges noticeably or do you think it may be salesmanship? 

With the exception of the Patriots I have shot all the the others you mention and a dozen more besides, the only thing that is different now is the massive availability of 28/24 loads compared to back then where 32g loads were of course standard for clays and a fair bit of game loads.

I think guns are incomparably better today same as cars but I would shoot an 80's shell in a heart beat, in fact a few years ago I got given some cheap 32g Turbo's by someone who had long given up and when using them on Pool stands the breaks were incredible compared to even a good 28g load, it's all about payload at the end of the day.

Initially when we changed from 32g to 28g loads the result was some very fast and uncomfortable loads but things soon settled down. There is nothing inside or outside a shell today that wasn't there yesterday, arguably we could rue the loss of the compression cases from the old proper Winchesters and of course it'd be nice if they cost £85 quid a thou but that's about it.

I would put money on a side by side test revealing sweet nothing if we were to find some ole loads like the Victory/Winchester/Kent Champions/etc.

 

[Salopian]

Thank you for the replies.

Interesting, yes we used 32gram  and when we were forced to go to 28gram  many moaned. I well remember AJ Smith complaining bitterly , but he soon adapted to one ounce loads. But if you recall most loads were about 11,00 fps . Now we are shooting cartridges at a claimed 15-1600 fps  and 1300 is regarded as slow and even inferior. If velocity is a factor of recoil calculation it is hardly surprising that we notice little difference between 'old' 32 gram and modern day 28 gram.

Interesting comment about White Gold being described as mid-range. I have seen White Golds cope very well with extreme Fitasc targets without any problems at all.

Modern developments with powders is very interesting and I find it fascinating that we are able to increase the velocity without blowing the pattern. Obviously if we could keep increasing it we would soon get to the point where we saw no lead, which may well explain why the expensive cartridges such as Sovereigns,  Black Gold, RC Nix, Bol D'Or etc  are rated so good, many people shoot these at rangey targets  and are pleasantly surprised that they appear to not need a lot of lead.

I can remember the passing of some brands with mixed feelings , Express World Cups always give me a headache, Supremes are fabulous , Winchester Silvers, what a cartridge? Why can't we get those any more? Winchester Blues brilliant fast cartridge commercially manufactured , complied with all Proof specs but when tested independently by HULL Cartridge Company due to a friends Remington continually blowing up they were found to be way over pressure. So it just goes to show that what we shoot may not always be what it says in the specification.

For those of you who are velocity mad, you may wish to ponder the following.

We shoot clay targets at distances in excess of 25 metres, cartridge velocity is measured usually 1 metre in front of the muzzle and is slowing from then on!

 

[Hamster]

I agree with you about the fabulousity of Supremes and the Winchester Silvers, also headaches with World Cups but can't say I agree that modern shells are any faster or that the 28g loads today feel little different to 32g of old. I can definitely tell the difference for the better.

We had the choice of fast and even very fast (Victory Sonics) before but most shells probably were and are today around the 1250-1350 (real) fps mark.

It's nice to see that you agree the difference in lead between fast and standard/slower is perceivable.  

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Victory sonics.....great shell ....great headaches afterwards though.

Fiocchi 36 grm Electrocibles and RC4 36 grm best two shells in the world before they started buggering about with gramage..IMHO!!

Would still shoot those two now.

(Oh you are bringing back memories of the full sweetie shop....life savers....life boats......NO ...STOP..!! We cannot have them anymore over here. But..............we can elsewhere :wink: )

 

[jwpzx9r]

Speaking as an ex researcher I am of course a believer in the science of progress. I know that a cartridge is a simple thing in terms of its componentry but I just want to believe that the manufacturers are not or have not just been changing the colour of the cases and the name on the carton! However when we consider a multi billion dollar scientific industry that sends new drug candidates to the FDA claiming they are better based on less negative side effects rather than greater efficacy maybe my faith is miss placed... Then again the placebo effect can be incredible...If the manufacturer says they are a new and greatly improved version of the old ones some will notice an immediate improvement in their shooting and happily stump up the extra cost... even if they have only change the case colour and the name on the box!