oh I'm not taking it to heart, hopefully the smiley face would have given the impression that I was joining in, but clearly it didn't ?Andy, don't take it too much to heart, as you can see from the rest of the post I was just being inflammatory.
Muller Chokes?
- Thread starter S.Deaville
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Doctor Lecter
Well-known member
back on track fixed chokes sorted simples !
Well I just bought a u1, U2 & u3 for my blaser.
In in my opinion not everything get great reviews all the time and when people talk about a product its the few bad reviews that people talk about. The people that are happy with the product tend to say nothing.
If they all broke then they wouldn't be selling them anymore.
As for if they are better than the flush briley chokes that come with my f3, I'm sure there's not a lot between them. I just got them because I'm a tart and not afraid to say it. :wink:
In in my opinion not everything get great reviews all the time and when people talk about a product its the few bad reviews that people talk about. The people that are happy with the product tend to say nothing.
If they all broke then they wouldn't be selling them anymore.
As for if they are better than the flush briley chokes that come with my f3, I'm sure there's not a lot between them. I just got them because I'm a tart and not afraid to say it. :wink:
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
I would refer you to the discussion by Mr. Winston in the below
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/muller-chokes.244773/
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/muller-chokes.244773/
Paul120
Well-known member
There's 3 for sale on Guntrader for £100
May split..
May split..
schmokinn
Well-known member
still waiting to hear of a faulty Briley,Teague,Rhino or other aftermarket tube made from the correct material...i guess there must be some?
then again there are at least 10 people on here that have had faulty mullers...so if someone can explain to me how it can possibly be perceived that they are a good quality product i await enlightenment ?!
then again there are at least 10 people on here that have had faulty mullers...so if someone can explain to me how it can possibly be perceived that they are a good quality product i await enlightenment ?!
I have to laugh, someone asked Mr Muller on his forum if he would make his chokes with exactly the same geometry but out of Ti or stainless. The answer was no because making a choke out of anything other than Aluminium ceramic produces a hot core regardless of the geometry.
So the 'superior non hot core' patterns are down to the choice of material rather than the geometry of the choke.
My experiment of wrapping my chokes in bacofoil to reduce my hot core doesn't seem to have had the desired effect though.
I am not just singling out Mr Muller for his claims as most of the other aftermarket / OME chokes makers make some far reaching claims. Just he has his own forum and tries to defend his claims which leads to deleted threads and some rewriting of science, makes for some fun reading though.
I just thought he used Aluminim for lightness and cleanliness, seems I was mistaken.
I have no idea but apparently it's meant to be a good trait, a bit like after eating a curry the lack of a hot core is good.
I had a look and a hot core is:-
"
Lets say you are not shooting Muller Chokes yet, but are still shooting one of the "well known" chokes tubes out there on the market such as a Comp-n-Choke, Kicks, Rhino, Pure Gold, Briley, etc. IF you have ever patterned your chokes (which by the way is another very important topic I will be discussing in my next post) you will notice that many of these chokes produce whats referred to as a "HOT CORE" pattern which is where you have a very dense inner core where no target would ever have a chance of surviving, then, there is the "OUTER FRINGE" this is where things matter when it comes to patterns and chokes. You see, if you do not mind shooting a hot cored choke then so be it, but be forewarned, your "EFFECTIVE" pattern is basically no larger than a good 28 gauge pattern at most distances, some very hot cored chokes are no more effective than a .410 pattern. The reason for this is because if your on the target you smoke it because there are so many pellets in the hot core, which is usually only approx 20 - 24 inches in diameter at its most effective distance for that given choke, if the target is closer than the optimal distance for that given constriction then it will be even smaller, maybe only 12 inches, which by the way is less than a good .410 pattern my friends!
Now lets touch on what this hot core means to the outer fringe. The reason a hot core developes is because many pellets shot thru conventional chokes are damaged and deformed before they leave the muzzle. Among other things, the causes can be due to inferior choke geometry, inconsistent geometry, material, surface finish, etc. for the specific bore diameter of your shotgun. Therefore you lose many pellets that never stay in the pattern. These are called "Flyers." These pellets that were damaged and flew irregularly when exposed to the extreme forces of friction when hitting the air upon exiting your muzzle, were SUPPOSED to make up the outer fringe of your big 12 gauge pattern. You NEED them because they provide you with a larger margin of error on your lead to help you break the target more consistently.
So basically, there you have it, in a nut shell the effective diameter of a hot cored choke is no better than shooting a sub gauge gun. THIS is something that I, as a serious competitor and hunter could not deal with. I knew there had to be a way to obtain a serious big bore 12 gauge pattern with an effective, consistent and predictable outer fringe pattern. This larger margin of error produces an advantage over other competitors, and that is how Muller Chokes was born."
I had a look and a hot core is:-
"
Lets say you are not shooting Muller Chokes yet, but are still shooting one of the "well known" chokes tubes out there on the market such as a Comp-n-Choke, Kicks, Rhino, Pure Gold, Briley, etc. IF you have ever patterned your chokes (which by the way is another very important topic I will be discussing in my next post) you will notice that many of these chokes produce whats referred to as a "HOT CORE" pattern which is where you have a very dense inner core where no target would ever have a chance of surviving, then, there is the "OUTER FRINGE" this is where things matter when it comes to patterns and chokes. You see, if you do not mind shooting a hot cored choke then so be it, but be forewarned, your "EFFECTIVE" pattern is basically no larger than a good 28 gauge pattern at most distances, some very hot cored chokes are no more effective than a .410 pattern. The reason for this is because if your on the target you smoke it because there are so many pellets in the hot core, which is usually only approx 20 - 24 inches in diameter at its most effective distance for that given choke, if the target is closer than the optimal distance for that given constriction then it will be even smaller, maybe only 12 inches, which by the way is less than a good .410 pattern my friends!
Now lets touch on what this hot core means to the outer fringe. The reason a hot core developes is because many pellets shot thru conventional chokes are damaged and deformed before they leave the muzzle. Among other things, the causes can be due to inferior choke geometry, inconsistent geometry, material, surface finish, etc. for the specific bore diameter of your shotgun. Therefore you lose many pellets that never stay in the pattern. These are called "Flyers." These pellets that were damaged and flew irregularly when exposed to the extreme forces of friction when hitting the air upon exiting your muzzle, were SUPPOSED to make up the outer fringe of your big 12 gauge pattern. You NEED them because they provide you with a larger margin of error on your lead to help you break the target more consistently.
So basically, there you have it, in a nut shell the effective diameter of a hot cored choke is no better than shooting a sub gauge gun. THIS is something that I, as a serious competitor and hunter could not deal with. I knew there had to be a way to obtain a serious big bore 12 gauge pattern with an effective, consistent and predictable outer fringe pattern. This larger margin of error produces an advantage over other competitors, and that is how Muller Chokes was born."
schmokinn
Well-known member
"The reason a hot core developes is because many pellets shot thru conventional chokes are damaged and deformed before they leave the muzzle" funny i was under the impression that exactly the opposite happened.
damaged pellets being more prone to lateral movement/collision (zingers) due to an unbalanced shape and more drag slowing them down to create the shotstring...but then i can't speak the american lingo more commonly known as BS seems he's an expert.!
did they eventually remove the "won't shoot loose" statement? as by personal use i know they bloody do!!
damaged pellets being more prone to lateral movement/collision (zingers) due to an unbalanced shape and more drag slowing them down to create the shotstring...but then i can't speak the american lingo more commonly known as BS seems he's an expert.!
did they eventually remove the "won't shoot loose" statement? as by personal use i know they bloody do!!
Ian Lawrence
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2015
- Messages
- 277
Reading on from this "explanation" of the Hot Core, I am led to believe then that if you don't use Muller Chokes, then you will suffer this hot core problem? If then, you also use Fiocchi Fblack Cartridges, which are famous for their "tight central patterning", would you actually be relegating yourself to having the spread of a solid slug?
WoW! :frantics:
I suppose if you read any of this marketing hype (or drivel as I call it) often enough, and keep repeating it to yourself, you might just come to believe it? Who knows?? :no:
WoW! :frantics:
I suppose if you read any of this marketing hype (or drivel as I call it) often enough, and keep repeating it to yourself, you might just come to believe it? Who knows?? :no:
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
And here's sumore
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/opinions-wanted-muller-choke-tubes.195590/
I believe it was Mr. Goebbls who said something like
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
I'm sure you can substitute "business" for "state" with impunity. Good old Joe is pretty much the gold standard for advertising and politicians. Funny old world, ain't it?
I tend to think that the majority of problems encountered with these chokes is down to bad fitting by the shooter or a bad fit for the gun/choke interface? As to whether one make of choke is better than another... is that even relevant? If a shooter gets a confidence boost by using a certain choke or cartridge in their gun then that is the important fact. I recently on this site read a post by a good trap shooter saying his gun choked 1/2 and 5/8 could break any OT target presented him and indeed for nearly all he only requires SK and CYL ! ... but there are plenty who will tell you that 3/4 and full is the only option!
A good Internet forum has to have checks and balances, someone who recommends a choke just because it gives them confidence or they like the bling will not get much in the way of negative debate. But someone who claims that buying (insert product and brand here) gives you an instant x amount of targets will get questions asked.
If we don't do this then new shooters reading will just buy stuff in the misguided belief that you can buy targets on your score with some wonder product.
Hence why there is always a debate on muller chokes, you get some wild claims and then the counter claims will almost certainly appear.
Regards the failures Mr Muller has given several different reasons from a new geometry he tried for better patterns that didn't work, to a typo in manufacturing which were both recalled and only with Beretta chokes and now of course the hard to disprove shooter error. So even Mr Muller is not exactly sure what has caused the failures.
To state that every muller choke is going to explode is just as misguided as trying to state that all muller choke failures are somehow the shooter or gun manufacturers fault.
If you like them great, if you don't that's also great, but both sides of the argument seem passionate about getting their point across.
My personal view of Muller ownership was noncommittal, no better or worse than the equivalent standard chokes with the only failure being the small chips to the ceramic in some areas.
Good post... But with respect to the section in bold let me make one thing clear though I am not an advocate of the Muller brand although like you I have in the past used them and my opinion of them is also the same save the fact I had no chipping issues. My suggestion as to the failure of choke is just an opinion and question hence the punctuation in my post. This is the area where the failures I have heard of has originated. So my thoughts are of a failure due to either to the choke not being fitted properly or the choke not fitting the gun properly... now common sense would say that if the standard choke fitted properly and there was no problem then the gun is not to blame if a non standard choke fitted correctly fails, so I am not sure how you would interpret that as a gun manufacture fault. So let us be clear I am not trying to state anything I am merely of the opinion that these are two possible reasons why a choke would/could fail.
Just to give a little context to that part of my post.
On the Muller forum when people started to report the odd issue with guns other than Beretta, people pointed out the initial Muller statement that it was only Beretta chokes that were problematic was not holding water.
So one reason given by Muller was sloppy manufacturing and tolerances of the gun manufacturer were to blame. His chokes are made to accommodate +- x amount from a standard measurement but the gun maker went +- xx amount.
His response read along the lines that his chokes were perfectly fine but too well made for that brand and it was a gun manufacturers problem. The odd gun was too far out of spec but the inferior standard chokes would accommodate as they were made so loose. However because he was a stand up guy he would replace the chokes with ones that had a slightly bigger tolerance for free but they had bought a duff gun.
Reading between the lines he is not going to admit any issue at all with his chokes because he would get crucified on the forums so it's anybody else's fault but Muller chokes. To be fair he doesn't use it to get out of replacing them but it rubs people up the wrong way when they are being fobbed off or actually blamed for the failure. I suspect this is the reason why the doubters of Muller are so vocal.
So that part of my post was really in relation to the above that Mr Muller's view is it's anyone else's fault but mine rather than tarring you with the same brush.
On the Muller forum when people started to report the odd issue with guns other than Beretta, people pointed out the initial Muller statement that it was only Beretta chokes that were problematic was not holding water.
So one reason given by Muller was sloppy manufacturing and tolerances of the gun manufacturer were to blame. His chokes are made to accommodate +- x amount from a standard measurement but the gun maker went +- xx amount.
His response read along the lines that his chokes were perfectly fine but too well made for that brand and it was a gun manufacturers problem. The odd gun was too far out of spec but the inferior standard chokes would accommodate as they were made so loose. However because he was a stand up guy he would replace the chokes with ones that had a slightly bigger tolerance for free but they had bought a duff gun.
Reading between the lines he is not going to admit any issue at all with his chokes because he would get crucified on the forums so it's anybody else's fault but Muller chokes. To be fair he doesn't use it to get out of replacing them but it rubs people up the wrong way when they are being fobbed off or actually blamed for the failure. I suspect this is the reason why the doubters of Muller are so vocal.
So that part of my post was really in relation to the above that Mr Muller's view is it's anyone else's fault but mine rather than tarring you with the same brush.
schmokinn
Well-known member
the reason why they are constantly faulty is because they fail to come upto the OE equipment specification.
you are limited on shot size,you cannot use steel shot and so on.
i have never seen a faulty OE or correctly specced aftermarket choke (not saying there hasn't been some) and i am not scared of saying i believe they are CRAP,if they cause damage to your gun your warranty will be invalid and Muller will blame you as they do not make faulty chokes :lol:
i may well have been rubbed up the wrong way at some point by their attitude but facts are facts not the fantasies they come out with.
anybody want to buy an optima hp u2? :wink:
you are limited on shot size,you cannot use steel shot and so on.
i have never seen a faulty OE or correctly specced aftermarket choke (not saying there hasn't been some) and i am not scared of saying i believe they are CRAP,if they cause damage to your gun your warranty will be invalid and Muller will blame you as they do not make faulty chokes :lol:
i may well have been rubbed up the wrong way at some point by their attitude but facts are facts not the fantasies they come out with.
anybody want to buy an optima hp u2? :wink:
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I have also to be fair and say that I did shoot about 3-4k of shells without problem but on the whole I found them to be very similar to shooting the standard chokes in terms of what I could see happening at the target. I actually bought them because they were a little more open than a standard 3/4 and full in the hope of picking up one or two on the outside of the pattern... think I could just as easily gone half and LF to be fair and saved some dosh. I do however have to add again that shooters DO buy things for the most irrational of reasons and one of those things for me was chokes, again I am neutral on these though they were neither a plus nor a minus... oh wait they look a lot better than the standard Briley's
