One eye, both eyes, does it matter?

[ips]

I don't think catching a ball is a good example, you don't give your hands lead when catching a ball, you get them there before the ball arrives. Catching a ball involves two objects, the ball and your hands (I'm counting hands as one object) shooting involves three objects, the moving target, the gun, and then the shot. You have to put the shot on the right line at the right distance in-front of the target and at the distance the clay is away from you, not on the ends of your arms.

I'd agree that most AAA shooters see the clay to end of barrel relationship and convey this as lead, the numbers they use in feet or whatever are personal, which is why I struggle to take others advice or to give it if I'm hitting a target and someone else is missing. If they do miss then they have a known base from which to make a correction, more or less lead. IMO if you don't see this relationship then how can you make a controlled change to the shot that is repeatable if the change is correct.

How can "aiming at it" work.... do you mean shoot it when it's landed?????

correct, you wait until the clay lands on soft grass then you aim and shoot and claim a point.

I meant using the bead or barrell as a reference for lead as opposed to a more instinctive Churchill nethod. But I can see how my poor wording could have been taken literally.

 

[DavidJ]

So, what I don't understand now is, if you shoot the Churchill method i.e "at it" with a moving gun, you must know when the barrels are pointing at the target to be able to pull the trigger at the correct point in time on your swing.

If you can see this relationship then seeing lead is just an extension of this.  

 

[ips]

David

actually you do not see the barell at all, the Churchill method which I have only recently discovered is pretty much what I do is based on hand eye coordination. It relies on an absolutely reliable and replicable gun mount. Gun speed imparts the neccasary "lead" but lead is never seen, measured or pre determined. It is a pure and instinctive method that is not without its problems. On the days one has ones eye in so to speak it is a smooth almost effortless method but on the days it doesn't work one is left in an abyss of total frustration as due to the detachment of any barrell awareness reasons for misses are all but impossible to conclude. I have tried all the other methods and even on the occasions I could make it work I did not enjoy them as much even if arguably those methods may be more reliable.

 

[Will Hewland]

Show me a genuine AA / AAA sporting shooter who doesn’t see lead and I’ll eat my gun and pay IPS £10k

I know one regular registered shooter who says that they don’t see lead even on massive battues. But they have been shooting for 20 years and are just getting into B class..

 

[ips]

Show me a genuine AA / AAA sporting shooter who doesn’t see lead and I’ll eat my gun and pay IPS £10k

I know one regular registered shooter who says that they don’t see lead even on massive battues. But they have been shooting for 20 years and are just getting into B class..

I agree...probably. As I said earlier for esp were you know were the target is coming from and going to then a pre meditated shot is probably better for consistent score but it wont work at fast trap or game when the flight path is unknown. Imho of course.

 

[balltrap]

Having shot sporting all my life I only see lead and thats the only way to shoot it, having shot trap for many years i have tried to shoot it in the same way but it does not work many trap shooters do not see lead its all about gun swing, its built in lead if you are swinging past the target because you do not have the time to gauge the lead in the way you have in sporting. 

 

[Will Hewland]

I agree...probably. As I said earlier for esp were you know were the target is coming from and going to then a pre meditated shot is probably better for consistent score but it wont work at fast trap or game when the flight path is unknown. Imho of course.

I’m not saying you can’t shoot a target (clay or game) by slashing through it and not perceiving lead, you can of course. But you will a lot more if you learn to see the gap. I can probably hit a whole in one at golf using a croquet mallet if I have 1000 attempts, but it’s not the preferred method. 

 

[balltrap]

In trap you pull the trigger on the target and keep swinging, that does not work too well at sporting 

 

[ips]

Having shot sporting all my life I only see lead and thats the only way to shoot it, having shot trap for many years i have tried to shoot it in the same way but it does not work many trap shooters do not see lead its all about gun swing, its built in lead if you are swinging past the target because you do not have the time to gauge the lead in the way you have in sporting. 

exactly ?

 

[Guest]

Dont be sorry David. I stand by what i say, if you catch a ball thats going from left to right you have to give your hands "lead" to catch the ball thats travelling faster than your stationary hands, yet you still dont look at your hands. The only difference is is that you learn to catch a ball from a very early age so its engrained in to your memory. Are there any AAA shooters on this forum that have an opinion???

I’ve read a load of stuff on Facebook recently with Ed Solomon’s and Ben Husthwaite about barrel-clay awareness. Basically what they say if I’m reading it correctly, is they can see exactly where there barrel is pointing when they fire, without looking at the gun. I take that to mean they see the barrels in their peripheral vision? They must have done something right to become world champs? 

I agree with MBP I don't see lead EVER I don't see the barrel or bead.....thats not actually true on the occasion I do see barrel or bead I inevitably miss. Focus on target or bird and keep barrels moving and job done.

having said that, if your shooting esp which is a know trajectory as opposed to trap or game then I can see how "aiming at it" might work better.

Without being unkind, are you not quite a poor sporting shot by your own admission? 

 

[ips]

on certain targets yes David by my own admission as you say. But I am a competent trap shooter and a fair driven game shot. I did state that seeing lead and being aware of the barrell may / probably work better for esp but I maintain that it wont work effectively at trap or indeed any type of snap shooting game presentation

 

[schmokinn]

does it matter

Simply wondering on his perspective as to why he thinks it needs to be a high class shooter.

For me sometimes i am consciously aware but many times i am not.

 

[ips]

Simply wondering on his perspective as to why he thinks it needs to be a high class shooter.

For me sometimes i am consciously aware but many times i am not.

ah, understood ?

 

[jwpzx9r]

I only shoot trap and never see lead generally. I shoot a method that relies on me knowing where my barrels are pointing. I have done major changes to comb height for example and these changes have had absolutely no effect whatsoever on my shooting essentially, I believe, because I do not look at my gun when shooting. I will say this though. There have been times when I have shot a extreme right to left or the other and after shooting the target have caught a glimpse of where my gun is pointing immediately after the target has broken and it is miles in front of where the target was. I know that a lot of that is down to the gun continuing to move after the shot but I think it illustrates there is a lot of lead prior to taking the shot that I am totally unaware of. I am looking at the target when I take the shot and think my gun is right next to the target but it is pointing well in front of the target. Well that is what I think is happening it all happens so quickly, unlike a sporting target when you know exactly where the target is coming from and going to... that is not a dig at sporting... I have tried parcours recently and won't be doing so again  

I think that generally speaking different people and of course different disciplines lead to different methods and perceptions. And of course to answer the OP's question definitely both eyes open ... even if you do have eye dom issues. I use sticky tape to overcome my eye dom problems.

 

[Westward]

The best analogy I can think of applies to both the 1 eye or 2 query and also barrel awareness. Think about vision when driving a vehicle. Almost all attention is concentrated on the road and the environment ahead, but the dash, steering wheel and usually some of the front end bodywork are all in the field of view. If we were completely unaware of these nearby things in the non centred vision we'd be unable to take corners properly or perhaps not take them at all. Judging braking would also be problematic and it's a certainty that the drivers behind would soon become very concerned about the erratic driving.

As to the 1 or 2 eye question, try driving with one eye covered and see how you get on.

 

[Guest]

on certain targets yes David by my own admission as you say. But I am a competent trap shooter and a fair driven game shot. I did state that seeing lead and being aware of the barrell may / probably work better for esp but I maintain that it wont work effectively at trap or indeed any type of snap shooting game presentation

Again, not to be unkind, going away trap discipline clays don’t need lead, going away presentation sporting clays don’t need lead either. Average driven birds are killed by gun speed, no real perceived lead need there either. It’s only when you get to quality driven birds gun speed alone is just not enough my friend, the big stuff needs a gap. Look up Dave Carrie on YouTube, he’s got a couple of shots where the camera lets you see the massive lead he has to give some high and fast long tails!!! There are two in perticular that he kills second barrel by giving visibly more lead than the first barrel. I’ll bet he can see and probably measure those gaps. Oh, and he kills the argument that you can’t shoot well with one eye shut, he’s only got one eye, not that it shows

 

[jwpzx9r]

Again, not to be unkind, going away trap discipline clays don’t need lead,

Don't know what kind of trap targets you shoot but the ones I shoot do need lead. That statement is rubbish every moving target need to be lead if you don't you will miss. The thing is that shooters don't realise they are shooting with lead because they do things instinctively. The notion that gun speed is solely responsible for successfully breaking a trap target is also rubbish. Yes gun speed is important... but not nearly as important as knowing where your gun is pointing you can easily hit and powder a trap target using a slower gun movement ... if you know where you are pointing you barrels when the trigger is pulled.

I know lots of shooters who can flash the barrels at a trap target... most of the shots being misses because the have not a clue where the are shooting!

 

[Guest]

Don't know what kind of trap targets you shoot but the ones I shoot do need lead. That statement is rubbish every moving target need to be lead if you don't you will miss. The thing is that shooters don't realise they are shooting with lead because they do things instinctively. The notion that gun speed is solely responsible for successfully breaking a trap target is also rubbish. Yes gun speed is important... but not nearly as important as knowing where your gun is pointing you can easily hit and powder a trap target using a slower gun movement ... if you know where you are pointing you barrels when the trigger is pulled.

I know lots of shooters who can flash the barrels at a trap target... most of the shots being misses because the have not a clue where the are shooting!

#percevedlead

How much lead do you SEE shooting a straight away or shallow angle going away? How much lead are you SEEING when you decide to pull the trigger even on a hard left or right? 

Thats right, you don’t see perceived lead before you decide to pull the trigger!!!

 

[jwpzx9r]

#percevedlead

How much lead do you SEE shooting a straight away or shallow angle going away? How much lead are you SEEING when you decide to pull the trigger even on a hard left or right? 

Thats right, you don’t see perceived lead before you decide to pull the trigger!!!

Personally I never see any lead when I shoot because I do not look at my gun... but it is there simply because I know where my barrels are pointing ensures that. All moving targets need lead if they are to be hit... some people shoot a method that is based on seeing that measure others use a method where they don't see the lead as such but know where their gun is pointing in relation to the target. So in summary going away trap targets do need lead and if you want to hit the target the amount of lead given has to be quite precise.

 

[Will Hewland]

I think each post on this thread needs to be headed either TRAP or SPORTING. Otherwise we are all at cross purposes somewhat.