Pair Lost

[Tebbsy]

Just looking for clarification on something.

On a stand yesterday, shooter in front of me calls pull on sim pair going away. Fires first barrel - kill. Second barrel doesnt go off. Ref says leave gun closed! Shooter doesnt hear and breaks gun. Ref imediately calls pair lost.

Ref clarifies that it is a sim pair nothing established and reafirms pair lost, even though shooter made kill with first barrel. States that if shooter had left gun closed and opened on request under inspection of ref, that it may have been pair again if it was a soft strike etc.

It would appear that it wa the fault of the shooter holding on to trigger but he did kill with first barrel and didnt fire second.

Thoughts, clarifications?

 

[Adam]

I'm fairly sure it should of been Kill/Loss, a bit harsh from the ref

 

[Sian]

I thought Sim pairs nothing established.  Harsh perhaps yesterday but if something goes wrong with the second bird then nothing established for the first bird.  Should have kept the gun closed for roughly 30 seconds in any event just in case so perhaps he was a bit hasty opening it in any event.   Ref does have the right to call as he/she did.

 

[Fortis Mark]

Withdrawing that, having read it again I'm not sure now.

 

[Delboy]

With your explanation of events, I would say the Ref got it wrong.

If both birds were released successfully and the shooter killed one and didn't shoot the second with a perfectly good functioning gun and cartridge, and is was  the shooters fault for not releasing the trigger then that has to be killed and lost. no different to Dubai where some shooters didnt even see the second the bird to get a shot off!

However if either  the gun or cartridge malfunctioned on the second shot, then that would nothing established, pair again  

 

[Sian]

I think in this case it has more to do with the fact that when something like that happens and it may or may not be a malfunction, it is the ref who is supposed to open the gun and examine the cartridge and determine that.  (I think). 

 

[schmokinn]

I think in this case it has more to do with the fact that when something like that happens and it may or may not be a malfunction, it is the ref who is supposed to open the gun and examine the cartridge and determine that.  (I think). 

i beleive youy are right but i have never seen it done...have seen a lot of people just pull it ou immediately,look at the cap and bin it.

usually makes me step back a couple of yards!!

 

[Hamster]

I thought Sim pairs nothing established.  Harsh perhaps yesterday but if something goes wrong with the second bird then nothing established for the first bird.  Should have kept the gun closed for roughly 30 seconds in any event just in case so perhaps he was a bit hasty opening it in any event.   Ref does have the right to call as he/she did.

Correct, pairs are judged on their (entirety), remember if shooter kills one and is faced with a broken other target or wildly off line, he would be awarded pair again nothing established.

In this example the shooter failed to allow the ref the opportunity to assess whether he had caused the FTF by not releasing the trigger (more common than you'd think), therefore he had no choice but to judge pair lost. In normal comps he'd almost certainly have been more lenient but not at a reg event.

 

[Papa]

That's bizarre surely ? Either the pair counts or doesn't . Is it in the rules somewhere ?


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[Papa]

I can understand not opening it on safety grounds , we have to wait if we have a .308 misfire and leave it pointing down range .


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[Sian]

It's bizarre really because I have been to some registered shoots where (a) I would not want to hand my gun to the ref and ( B) they would not want to receive it.  They are normally young, inexperienced and would not know what to do with it and I do not want to be responsible for what happens.  I have had misfires and times when I have held onto the trigger too long and it won't fire - I have no idea at the time which is which so I just act as if it is a misfire, wait the time and wait for the ref, who does normally just ask me to open the gun.  I am always honest and show my cartridge.  

I have no idea where the face came from it is mean to be the letter b.

 

[Eddie Wilkinson]

Pair lost,  Should have waited for the ref to examine the gun, seen it quite a few times. I've also seen the ref give a pair again to the shooter in that situation. As stated above the rules are there, not always enforced correctly though.   :haha:

You learn the hard way I guess

 

[timps]

The CPSA rule book is ambiguous at best on most things, but the gist of it is that if the shooter calls gun malfunction he or she is effectively asking for the pair again nothing established.

If he or she opens the gun then in general rules the referee has to call target lost and being a simo pair that means both.

TARGET DEFINITION “LOST”

3.12 The competitor after an apparent malfunction or misfire opens the gun or moves the safety catch before handing the gun to the Referee.

If in the stand and you know it is user error then don't call for a gun malfunction and the first target stands, second target lost.

Once you call it then the referee is obliged to follow the rules harsh as they are.

 

[Gavin]

Ref got it right. But seems harsh to me

 

[Tebbsy]

Thanks all for the replies, as usual; A consice answer to a bonafide question. I'll open the floor to the usual batter and p!ss taking now.....

 

[Papa]

None of that Tebbsy , I'm glad you brought it up . Well shot by the way

 

[schmokinn]

worst i have actually seen is one geezer not had a shell gone off...put it in his mouth while reloading and then looked at it!!

 

[DevonDog]

You will get the hang of it after 30 years shooting and losing points. :wink:

I've been shooting for 40 years and still not got the hang of it......... :fie:

 

[Eddie Wilkinson]

Slight change of angle on this one... Isn't there a difference on Sim pairs if shooting to 'English sporting rules' and 'British sporting rules' or am I just imagining it  ?