Pair Lost

[Rosso]

This shoot has great inconsistences with refs.

The ref on stand 12 was totaling up all the scores on the cards that she had just scored causing waiting shooters to wait, she should just total up her line not whole card!

This same ref a while ago told my mate to break his gun and not wave it about -- its a semi he told her !!

Stand 11 shot 6 scorer put 6 x's but wrote down 4, I had to go back have a debate!

Waiting to shoot stand 10 scorer having a nice long chat with Mr Hewlands crew whilst I was in waiting to shoot.

It also has really good scorers who really are on the ball so this is where the inconsistences are.

Most refs don't know that trailing pairs are same rule as Simo.

Who ever that ref was should have given the pair again, to many jobs worth's ruining everything, does it really matter, break the clay it goes on the card, Simples.

I always take this shoot as I find it.

 

[Rosso]

Yes ..it is in the rules.

But most do not read rules :laugh:

You will get the hang of it after 30 years shooting and losing points. :wink:

Including the refs.

 

[Rosso]

If your gun does not go off...you are supposed to hold it down range muzzles up and wait for the ref to come a shoulder the gun and attempt to fire it. Under no circumstance can the shooter open the gun or alter the safety catch. The ref must try to fire it before opening gun.

Not a lot of people know that.....including refs

Never seen this, if I get a misfire I point gun down range wait 30 secs, open gun show shell to ref, ask ref what to do with shell.

I would not risk handing a live fired gun to anyone, it could be dropped should it go off. So give me the lost bird every time.

Then next time I attend its birds only then it does not matter.

 

[Gavin]

Perfectly safe handing a loaded closed gun to another person if done correctly, ( watch a good team on a driven day ) as harsh at it sounds rules on a sim pair are there to stop some one not firing the second barrel after missing the first ( to get repeat pair) in this case first bird killed I think the ref was harsh

 

[Sian]

That is true Gavin unless of course you factor in that the gun could still go off and if you are handing it to someone who is not used to handling guns and may not really wish to handle a gun in that situation.  I know they are probably in a minority but these folks do exist at a number of shoots.  There are of course a lot of refs out there who I consider to be more competent than myself and and I would not hesitate to act upon their instruction.

 

[timps]

I have said this before on a topic, what happens if a ref has no licence and the ground doesn't have a section 11 exemption in force or you are unaware at the time if it does or not, is the ref an excluded person, has the ref signed the Section 11 exemption form at the club house.

The rule could be asking you to break the law as you have no way of knowing.

I know what I am saying is paranoia and what ifs at the highest order but ignorance is no defence in law.

The trouble is plenty of shooters feign gun malfunction rather than a cartridge misfire which is easy to check in order to get a fresh chance.

 

[Papa]

I find the refs there as good as if not better than anywhere else I shoot .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[Gavin]

Agreed but it's up to you the shooter to allow enough time for a hang fire, in saying that Iv seen all to often guns broken immediately after a miss fire, and when you mention the possibility of a hang fire to be met with a grunt, iv only seen one hang fire and it was a good 5 seconds.

 

[Nimbusgb]

Surely having the ref inspect the gun does not necessarily mean handing the gun to him or her!

 

[Nimbusgb]

The CPSA rule book is ambiguous at best on most things, but the gist of it is that if the shooter calls gun malfunction he or she is effectively asking for the pair again nothing established.

If he or she opens the gun then in general rules the referee has to call target lost and being a simo pair that means both.

TARGET DEFINITION “LOST”

3.12 The competitor after an apparent malfunction or misfire opens the gun or moves the safety catch before handing the gun to the Referee.

If in the stand and you know it is user error then don't call for a gun malfunction and the first target stands, second target lost.

Once you call it then the referee is obliged to follow the rules harsh as they are.

Timps, Which rules are you reading that from please? The CPSA Booklet ( 7  'Technical Rules for DTL ...... ES etc )'  is different to your quote.

Part of the problem perhaps is that some of us don't know what rules book to read! I'm not trying to be argumentative, it would be genuinely helpful to know which rulebook to be reading!

 

[Rosso]

Perfectly safe handing a loaded closed gun to another person if done correctly, ( watch a good team on a driven day ) as harsh at it sounds rules on a sim pair are there to stop some one not firing the second barrel after missing the first ( to get repeat pair) in this case first bird killed I think the ref was harsh

I would love to see the risk assessment for that one.

I did say LIVE FIRED.

I have also seen some pretty shi* people on Driven days.

On simo pairs or any other target if the gun does not go off its a malfunction, who decides what that is? Pair again every time, amend the rules make the sport fun not pi** peole off. Surely shooters go to shoots to fire their guns don't they.

 

[timps]

Timps, Which rules are you reading that from please? The CPSA Booklet ( 7  'Technical Rules for DTL ...... ES etc )'  is different to your quote.

Part of the problem perhaps is that some of us don't know what rules book to read! I'm not trying to be argumentative, it would be genuinely helpful to know which rulebook to be reading!

It is in CPSA Booklet 5 general rules and regulations which applies to all disciplines,  page 19, 3. General rules Referee.

So according to that the referee has to call it a loss regardless of discipline no caveats.

However no targets are different and covered with the.

NO TARGET

3.16 Please refer to Technical Rules for specific discipline clarification on “No Targets”.

Which then means booklet 7 takes precedence.

 

[ips]

Excuse me sticking my oar in as a know nothing trappie but it sounds correct to me. If you open gun after mis fire you lose it or them. End of.

 

[Jan Powell]

Dear oh dear, reading the comments here it's no wonder I shoot trap!

 

[Nimbusgb]

Thanks Timps!

 

[paul b]

Unless you want to go to appeal the ref is right even if he/she is wrong,smile say thanks and enjoy your HOBBY.

 

[timps]

On simo pairs or any other target if the gun does not go off its a malfunction, who decides what that is? Pair again every time, amend the rules make the sport fun not pi** peole off. Surely shooters go to shoots to fire their guns don't they.

There is a difference between a gun malfunction or a cartridge malfunction, hence why the ref has to inspect and try and fire the gun.

Cartridge malfunction will leave an indent on the primer not hard to prove.

Gun malfunction where say the hammer of one barrel hasn’t cocked but does next time you open the gun more vigorously  is impossible to prove unless the ref tries to shoot it for himself.

If the ref can get a shot off without doing anything to the gun then its user error or feigned gun malfunction target lost.

I have seen shooters abort taking a shot and feign gun malfunction when their hold point is crap or they completely misread the target to try and get another go. Or has been already said on the second bird when they miss the first target of a simo pair to get nothing established pair again.

Cheating is rife in this sport and if you are going to let people off errors then where does it stop, error in lead, hold point, order simo paris taken.

 

[Rosso]

There are registered shoots I have been to on the M4 corridor who use a lot of school kids as scorers. Nothing wrong in that.

But are these school kids licensed / experienced to do as you or the rules suggest. I think not.

A gun not going bang or phut ( 21grm fibre) when trigger is pulled is a malfunction. Are these kids going to decide what it is let alone understand a complex rule. The only experienced person there in that situation are the shooters.

Yes cheating goes on, it always will, but if I ever see it I will voice my opinion. I have not seen evidence of cheating for years.

I really only pay attention to what I am doing and could not careless what anyone else does.

I think most shooters are honest and good willed and most would not entertain it and therefore should be given the benefit of doubt.

 

[westley]

I remember reading on here, a few weeks ago, that there is a dire shortage of Referees willing to take the Refs. course and give up their time a couple of times per month to allow us shooters to just turn up and shoot and all for a pittance. Thanks Guy's, some of you have just answered as to why that may be.

P.S.

That Ref. was RIGHT !

 

[ips]

Some of us have to ref as well as shoot and have to pay for the privalage.

Funny thing trap