Pair Lost

[Sian]

Some of us have to ref as well as shoot and have to pay for the privalage.

Funny thing trap

Can you all vote to get rid of the buzzy machine that tells you to missed - I f,,,,,g hate it.

 

[Rosso]

I remember reading on here, a few weeks ago, that there is a dire shortage of Referees willing to take the Refs. course and give up their time a couple of times per month to allow us shooters to just turn up and shoot and all for a pittance. Thanks Guy's, some of you have just answered as to why that may be.

P.S.

That Ref. was RIGHT !

Yes Westley he was right. But as the first bird of the simo pair was killed what did the shooter have to gain from doing what he did?A bit of common sense is needed sometimes, it was a simple mistake.

But yes the ref was right.

 

[shootinguru]

:fie:  Now to realy stir the sh*te, what would happen if the shooter was using a double release trigger? :fie:

 

[timps]

There are registered shoots I have been to on the M4 corridor who use a lot of school kids as scorers. Nothing wrong in that.

But are these school kids licensed / experienced to do as you or the rules suggest. I think not.

A gun not going bang or phut ( 21grm fibre) when trigger is pulled is a malfunction. Are these kids going to decide what it is let alone understand a complex rule. The only experienced person there in that situation are the shooters.

Yes cheating goes on, it always will, but if I ever see it I will voice my opinion. I have not seen evidence of cheating for years.

I really only pay attention to what I am doing and could not careless what anyone else does.

I think most shooters are honest and good willed and most would not entertain it and therefore should be given the benefit of doubt.

I totally agree with you on the legalities hence my other post on breaking the law.

You are also right about the gun not going bang when the trigger is pulled, but this doesn’t take into account those who don’t take the safety catch off, those who don’t release  the trigger from the first shot and those who do cheat.

I saw it happen three weeks ago at a registered shoot, shooter mounted for the B target instead of the A shouted pull. By the time he had got from his hold point for B and chased the A target it went behind a tree. No shot was fired he claimed misfire nothing established as he broke his gun. Young ref let it go, an experienced ref could at least quote the rules that it's target lost.

As for cheating unfortunately  I see it every week, bullying refs, claiming hits, alleged tampering of cards, the cynic in me thinks that sporting shooters are not mostly honest and good willed.

I could voice my opinion but not much point when the ref is just a young lad and no idea on the rule, who does he believe me or the shooter.

The rules are there and if you have a decent strong ref they can use them, especially at the majors,  if you get away with it because of inexperienced young ref then you have just got away with it.

But if most shooters are honest and good willed surely they will politely tell the young ref target lost I just opened my gun.

 

[westley]

Guru,

The most common cause of a 'misfire' is the failure to release the trigger !       (but usually between shots)

 

[shootinguru]

AH! but how would the referee examine the gun?

 

[tiptop]

If your gun does not go off...you are supposed to hold it down range muzzles up and wait for the ref to come a shoulder the gun and attempt to fire it. Under no circumstance can the shooter open the gun or alter the safety catch. The ref must try to fire it before opening gun.

Not a lot of people know that.....including refs

Happened on our squad in Dubai

Sim pair, miss, second barrel nothing, ref takes gun has a look, pulled trigger BANG,looked like the safety had moved, result..........Zero, Zero.

 

[shootinguru]

So am I Nic!

 

[Nimbusgb]

I remember reading on here, a few weeks ago, that there is a dire shortage of Referees willing to take the Refs. course and give up their time a couple of times per month to allow us shooters to just turn up and shoot and all for a pittance. Thanks Guy's, some of you have just answered as to why that may be.

P.S.

That Ref. was RIGHT !

Well I was interested in taking a ref's course but there is no course/ no space on a course that I can get on!

 

[Hamster]

:fie:  Now to realy stir the sh*te, what would happen if the shooter was using a double release trigger? :fie:

Pull/Release - Pull/Release, so the ref can still check whether shooter has caused the FTF by safely taking the gun from the shooter and pointing it in a safe direction Pull/Release to see if the gun fires.

We have already read perfectly valid points about refs not always being mature or experienced enough to cope with or understand the finer points of this rule in which case the shooter will need to assess and make a decision as to what to do. In practice it always means breaking the gun and loading to shoot again and the pair is more often than not scored afresh, not as per the book but nobody dies.

 

[shootinguru]

A shooter enters the stand with a double release trigger,  loads two shells, calls the pair pulling the trigger as he mounts, releases the trigger and kills first target, immeaditately pulls second trigger to reset *** ref calls NO BIRD!   the shooter cannot make the gun safe without  touching top lever to recock neither can he hand the gun over to reff without gun firing. so whats the answer smartass?

 

[PKB]

Agree with everything above re simo pairs and claiming misfire. However quick question, did the shooter yesterday actually claim a misfire or was he happy he had not been able to shoot the second bird and let it go without discharging second barrel?
I ask this, as from time to time I surfer from trigger flinch/freeze especially on second birds. I certainly have had cases where I have broken the first bird on a simo pair and on coming on to the second, have had a "flinch" and as a result, knowing that the bird had gone, I have not used the second barrel. I have then unloaded and prepared for next pair. I would be very hacked off if both the pair were called lost as a result of the ref misinterpreting what had happened!

 

[PhilS]

A shooter enters the stand with a double release trigger, loads two shells, calls the pair pulling the trigger as he mounts, releases the trigger and kills first target, immeaditately pulls second trigger to reset *** ref calls NO BIRD! the shooter cannot make the gun safe without touching top lever to recock neither can he hand the gun over to reff without gun firing. so whats the answer smartass?

He wouldn't need to hand the gun over if, as you say, the ref called 'no bird'.....

Edit - forgot to add .... smartass!

 

[PhilS]

Agree with everything above re simo pairs and claiming misfire. However quick question, did the shooter yesterday actually claim a misfire or was he happy he had not been able to shoot the second bird and let it go without discharging second barrel?
I ask this, as from time to time I surfer from trigger flinch/freeze especially on second birds. I certainly have had cases where I have broken the first bird on a simo pair and on coming on to the second, have had a "flinch" and as a result, knowing that the bird had gone, I have not used the second barrel. I have then unloaded and prepared for next pair. I would be very hacked off if both the pair were called lost as a result of the ref misinterpreting what had happened!

It wouldn't affect you. You aren't claiming a fault or no bird, so it would be "kill, loss" on each pair. That it happened with.

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[Hamster]

A shooter enters the stand with a double release trigger,  loads two shells, calls the pair pulling the trigger as he mounts, releases the trigger and kills first target, immeaditately pulls second trigger to reset *** ref calls NO BIRD!   the shooter cannot make the gun safe without  touching top lever to recock neither can he hand the gun over to reff without gun firing. so whats the answer smartass?

This isn't what's being discussed here, the subject is the shooter being unable to fire at the second target of a pair and the ref having to decide whether he deserves a fresh pair.

I am aware you have a thing for release triggers but this post has only caused you another self inflicted misfire :nyam:   :haha: . In any case in the example you provide there is no need to hand the gun over to the ref so again nobody dies.

 

[Tebbsy]

The second FTF was a result of trigger freeze not a missfire. I think the shooter new this and the reason for breaking the Gun.

 

[PKB]

Tebbsy, in that case it's as Tinker pointed out, its kill/ loss. If there is no claim or indication from shooter that his gun or cartridge malfunctioned he just carries on as normal. I think the ref has "jumped the gun" so to speak and should have clarified the situation.

 

[Maxum]

If it's the shooters own fault and is not claiming any kind of gun malfunction or cartridge malfunction then there is no reason for the ref to get involved at all but to mearly mark the card as kill / loss and carry on and finish the stand.

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[leighH]

well as a 'mature and experienced ' Referee in answer to the original post the correct call is kill/lost. First shot would be established in this case.

Leigh

 

[Alan Rowley]

After reffing umpteen english open, and british opens plus one world ( sporting) I knew there was a reason why I gave it up .