Pattern testing and related ballistic analysis if steel and other non-toxic alternatives

[FlyingTrotter]

To avoid getting enmeshed in other issues I have started this in part to provide a repository for data/analysis rather than ventilation of opinions which are probably best shared in the existing thread

After the voluntary ban for game effective in 5 years announcement I took a look on YouTube and saw some Videos of pattern testing of steel cartridges (some by folk in the UK) and through google found some older reports of ballistic analysis (mainly from the US)

im sure there must have been a lot of analysis in those countries that are now steel only and so ahead of whatever the manufacturers launch for the UK I thought it would be good to see what’s already collated 

I hear folk say steel can be ok to break a clay to around 50 yards but that at that range the pellet size needs to be #2 which obviously is way larger than has been acceptable on most clay grounds for lead cartridges - and that for larger live quarry like a mature **** pheasant the viable range is 30 yards again with #2 - but that seems from what I have seen to be more assertion that the product of any test work 

Is this accurate and verified?

(posted outside the game pages as lead/non-toxic likely to become of broader application for more shooters)

 

[Doctor Lecter]

but its not a voluntary ban     as we  the paying membership  never had a choice to vote  or have our say !!    whatever happens bet  it ends up more expensive !!  

 

[FlyingTrotter]

There is a thread for discussion of the announcement - please keep this for responsive posts to the issue I raised 

 

[Lloyd]

[SIZE=18.55px]Steel density is 0.00785 grams per cubic millimetres, hardness = 4.5 Mohs [/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]Lead density is 0.01143  [/SIZE]grams per cubic millimetres, hardness = 1.5 Mohs

[SIZE=18.55px]No: 7.5 shot is 2.3mm diameter which equates to a volume of 6.37mm3 = 0.0729 grams per pellet = 384 pellets per 28g[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]Steel shot with equivalent mass (weight in layman’s terms) to lead would be equal to 9.27mm3  [/SIZE]giving a shot diameter of 2.606mm or No: 6. The cartridge length (volumetric increase) would need to increase to accommodate the larger pellet for the same shot weight and pellet mass.

[SIZE=18.55px]FYI Sphere volume = 4/3.PI.r3[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]Force = mass x acceleration, therefore with the same pellet mass, and the same acceleration (deceleration) steel would have apply the same force as lead.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]Shot hardness also plays an important role as lead shot of the same mass and acceleration would impact less energy to the target to break it as the lead would deform more thus dissipating some of the available kinetic energy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]To illustrate, if you were to drop one rubber ball and one steel ball of the same mass [different diameters due to difference in density) onto a steel plate with the same acceleration (gravity = 9.81 meters per second per second) the steel ball would bounce higher due to the energy being transferred (every action has an equal and opposite reaction... Newton’s cradle!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]The main issue we face with steel is patterning with existing parameters.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]Choke bounce (pellets rattling around inside the barrels and against one another) is a phenomenon that both lead and steel exhibit, but the hardness of steel makes the bounce bigger as with the steel plate and rubber ball scenario above.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]To mitigate this, chokes will need at least to be made in 0.002” increments up to 0,020” for full choke (0.040” for lead shot). Additionally to limit bounce, a sabot or shot cup wad would be preferable. Either plastic (public concerns with single use plastics abound) or something “biodegradable”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.55px]My guess is that shotgun manufacturers, choke manufacturers, shot manufacturers, wad manufacturers will all have their individual input and innovations to work around these issues.[/SIZE]

 

[Centrepin]

One day, maybe, just maybe I might understand one of your posts like this. I doubt it, but I hope so. You're obviously very well educated or clever or both. Me, sorry it's way over my head. Life and the Army provided me with my education. I mean absolutely no offence with that and I know you'll not take umbrage with it.

So, cos I'm obviously thick and don't get theory! I've ordered some steel shot. Because I normally shoot 21 gram that's what I ordered. 7.5s. I'll shoot (at) some clays with the Shotkam on and look at my results.

If you're over my way, give me a nudge and we'll meet up, happy to try them with you see if the theory works.

 

[Lloyd]

@Centrepin Thank you, and absolutely no umbrage taken whatsoever. Even those who are more vociferous haven’t offended me as I know they mean well in their own unique ways and that’s just fine. We’re all human.

I’m not as well educated as one might presume, and I too learned a little in my army days and life has taught me some things that have caught me by surprise at times.

As an engineer, I believe in trying to be progressive as a society. Often the steps we take are backwards. Life is complex, yet it is also simple too.

 

[FreeShot]

I am shooting steel at clays occasionally for some time (app 5 years). I usually use Hull Pro Steel 28g No 7 (2.54mm) cartridges or Clever Steel, for sporting and trap as well. While steel may lack some on the furthest 2nd barrel olympic trap it is just fine for anything out to 50m or so. Last year I attended a competition (Fitasc Sporting) in Czechia, where we shot 500 clays in 3 days and it was steel only – me and my friends shot with Hull Sovereign Steel (great cartridge).  We shot some truly long edgy stuff there – I was shooting my 725 ProTrap with factory DS extended chokes  LF (.o26)  IM (.012).

Patterns are the same as with lead as far as I remember. On paper those look like this:


M at 20m:




IM at 40m:



LF at 40m:




I wrote about Hull Pro Steel some time ago (owned a MK 70 then):

 http://www.shootclayforum.com/topic/20570-hull-pro-steel-28g-7/?tab=comments#comment-232565

I haven't used it on live quarry tho.

 

[Lloyd]

@FreeShot thanks for the info. Enlightening. 
 

@Centrepin sorry, I truncated my response. Apparently I had some work to do

Yes, I’d love to shoot with you. Next time I’m oop north, I’ll gi thi a shout un pop ore Pennines

when all’s said and done, trying the cartridges is the best way to find out what works and what’s doesn’t.

at risk of sounding patronising, do check you proofed for steel and limit your choke to half. 
 

to closely resemble 1/4 & 1/2 you might find cylinder and skeet works or possibly skeet and 1/4.

we did some simulation at work today and think that chokes might help pattern better with steel if they’re longer with a more progressive taper. Similarly,, the simulation suggested longer forcing cones would also help. 
 

I think I’ll have a chat with Teague and see if they’ll make me some specials to see if the theory works in practice. 

 

[Centrepin]

@FreeShot thanks for the info. Enlightening. 
 

@Centrepin sorry, I truncated my response. Apparently I had some work to do

Yes, I’d love to shoot with you. Next time I’m oop north, I’ll gi thi a shout un pop ore Pennines

when all’s said and done, trying the cartridges is the best way to find out what works and what’s doesn’t.

at risk of sounding patronising, do check you proofed for steel and limit your choke to half. 
 

to closely resemble 1/4 & 1/2 you might find cylinder and skeet works or possibly skeet and 1/4.

we did some simulation at work today and think that chokes might help pattern better with steel if they’re longer with a more progressive taper. Similarly,, the simulation suggested longer forcing cones would also help. 
 

I think I’ll have a chat with Teague and see if they’ll make me some specials to see if the theory works in practice. 

Thanks, I'm ok to shoot any steel as my gun has the fleur de lys stamped (2013 model)

I use skeet and imp.cyl normally so will just use them. They are extended steel proofed 

I'll stay clear of my SxSs for now as they are 3/4 and full fixed.

 

[MartynB]

@FreeShot thanks for the info. Enlightening. 
 

@Centrepin sorry, I truncated my response. Apparently I had some work to do

Yes, I’d love to shoot with you. Next time I’m oop north, I’ll gi thi a shout un pop ore Pennines

when all’s said and done, trying the cartridges is the best way to find out what works and what’s doesn’t.

at risk of sounding patronising, do check you proofed for steel and limit your choke to half. 
 

to closely resemble 1/4 & 1/2 you might find cylinder and skeet works or possibly skeet and 1/4.

we did some simulation at work today and think that chokes might help pattern better with steel if they’re longer with a more progressive taper. Similarly,, the simulation suggested longer forcing cones would also help. 
 

I think I’ll have a chat with Teague and see if they’ll make me some specials to see if the theory works in practice. 

Just a point :   a gun does not have to have a Fleur de Lys proof to shoot steel shot . Any 70mm chamber gun that is in proof can fire standard steel cartridges from European manufacturers  . Subject of course to the choke constriction .The Fleur de Lys mark will generally be found on  some  3” and  3 1/2 chambered guns , and these are proofed for HP Steel shot . For example  My Mk 38 trap gun isn’t steel proofed , However it will fire standard steel no problem as I had a Teague Precision  long choke job  and bought chokes from 0 to fill in .005” increments 

Also,  just for info  Teague chokes are already continuously tapered  , they term this “Teague Taper Technology “   
 

Back to Flying Trotters  OP , I also find there is lots of anecdotal evidence on the terminal ballistics of steel . Hard is not  good in terms of transferring lethal energy into a bird , land game , or vermin . Eley used to publish a table of how many ft:lb of energy from a lead pellet was required to kill a given game animal . This  was quoted as X pellets at Y size depending on velocity and distance . I’d like to see the steel equivalents, and know they had been proved in the field . My worry with steel is that would over penetrate something like a hen pheasant or partridge and leave more  crippled rather than dead quarry . 

 

[Lloyd]

Thanks for the info on Teague taper. I did not know that. 

The steel shot used by Eley I’m told is a particularly soft steel  still much harder than lead I suspect as iron, the main constituent part of steel is much harder than hardened lead to my knowledge.

The problem with iron is, it’s expensive. Despite it being the main ingredient to steel which is produced is such large quantities, it’s dirt cheap. 
 

Processing iron as the end product is something done on a very small scale these day and that rarity keeps the price high. 
 

Tungsten polymer could be constructed to be soft and high mass. However, there is a mute point here. Tungsten is a heavy metal, like cadmium (banned) lead (banned in lots industries/markets), Arsenic, (heavily restricted ),  so I’d expect long term tungsten and bismuth to similarly be restricted or banned. 
 

Steel, or iron for me is the logical way to go. As for kills on live quarry, I would think some R&D would be pertinent. My best guess is there would be a conclusion around pellet size and velocity being the best fit solution.

my belief is as shooting industry moves ever closer to a steel only business model, competition will drive innovation as cartridge manufacturers vie for market share.  

 

[FlyingTrotter]

Thnks

What I saw from some searches was larger pellet size (+2 or +3 some debate about that) and yes to high speed

BUT most some reports were some years ago and not focused on UK challenges (bird height etc) and that was the point of starting this 

might Email Dave Carrie and see if he can do some more representative pattern testing and post them - of course with his gamebore connections he may be part of their R&D so cautious about launching forth sharing ahead of new product launches

 

[Centrepin]

If it's any help to anyone, this a page from the manual that came with my MK38 sport.

just as an edit mine is Invector plus, so I guess they will all be the same.

 

[Nimbusgb]

The cupped shot ball mention is supported in these photographs. Steel shot ( or lead shot ) doesn't touch your barrels until its about a barrel length out of the gun.

There are some 'eco wads' available already that don't use traditional plastics so the argument about plastic wads hardly holds water.

http://kuulapaa.com/home/highspeed/Misc.html

 

[Shamrock]

I'm loving this topic.

 

[schmokinn]

The cupped shot ball mention is supported in these photographs. Steel shot ( or lead shot ) doesn't touch your barrels until its about a barrel length out of the gun.

There are some 'eco wads' available already that don't use traditional plastics so the argument about plastic wads hardly holds water.

http://kuulapaa.com/home/highspeed/Misc.html

"doesn't touch your barrels until its about a barrel length out of the gun"? That would be some trick!

Better ask our resident scientist,he know doubt will be able to explain it consicely in laymans terms.

 

[Salopian]

Since we have been debating this for over thirty years now , we perhaps may need information updating.

I believe Tungsten Matrix has been proven to be carconagenic ? Bismuth is in basically a Worldwide rare commodity as it is used mainly in the cometics industry and there is not a plentiful supply , Steel has been proven to cause horrific injuries to wildlife due to its hardness and velocity resulting in pellets passing right through soft tissue causing serious wounding without mortality . I believe the US market now favours Hevishot or Niceshot but sadly because I am not a non- tox advocate I am not upto date . Perhaps someone can update us on what in BASC's own words "is an economic and efficient alternative " to Lead shot .

As an after thought are all houses and Churches subject to roof and flashing updates to abolish the use of Lead ? Maybe that would be a better course of action for the environmental pollution debate?

 

[FlyingTrotter]

Thanks this is exactly the sort of input I was seeking - my own reading has suggested that steel as it currently exits is a compromised option at best when used for game as game is shot in the UK - I am expecting to see the main manufacturers bring out new cartridges in the run up to the new season - whether they are able to come up with material developments that address the issues and make them “efficient and effective” alternatives to lead with data released to support their claims 

On other actions that we are likely to see major disruption way beyond lead - think gas fuelled domestic and commercial heating 

 

[schmokinn]

Since we have been debating this for over thirty years now , we perhaps may need information updating.

I believe Tungsten Matrix has been proven to be carconagenic ? Bismuth is in basically a Worldwide rare commodity as it is used mainly in the cometics industry and there is not a plentiful supply , Steel has been proven to cause horrific injuries to wildlife due to its hardness and velocity resulting in pellets passing right through soft tissue causing serious wounding without mortality . I believe the US market now favours Hevishot or Niceshot but sadly because I am not a non- tox advocate I am not upto date . Perhaps someone can update us on what in BASC's own words "is an economic and efficient alternative " to Lead shot .

As an after thought are all houses and Churches subject to roof and flashing updates to abolish the use of Lead ? Maybe that would be a better course of action for the environmental pollution debate?

I know somebody that works in roofing and many houses/churches with lead are listed buildings where it is stipulated that they must use the same materials...