Please don't read if you're not into chokes

[Hamster]

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=288335

Let sleeping dogs lie so I thought I'd dig a little into ShotgunWorld archives and post a new thread for those who are interested. It is surprisingly easy to do subject searches via their boogle option, this one is notable because it comes from the maker of Mullers and worth reading his posts.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

And.....thank you.....

I love being right on two topics.....

:wink:

No doubt we will now see some who will now argue it on here....against what Muller said.

 

[Les53]

OK I'm NOT really into chokes......but it was very interesting reading Hammy!!!

 

[no.1topdog]

Fantastic!

I admire your analytical mind Hamster, and your ability to find the facts. Proof positive I think.

However, this Sleeping Dog never lies!  :sarcastic:

 

[jwpzx9r]

Great bit of research hammy and puts the I remove my choke for a wider pattern thread to bed.

He makes some very important claims for his chokes performance over other brands, do you think it is all smoke and mirrors or do they work better? Many shooters have claimed to have benefitted from using his chokes but the power of marketing suggestion is amazing and placebo effect is high in many blind tests. I am waiting for a pair to arrive to try in my own gun. I am going to do a side by side patterning to see the difference .. if any.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Wow....I am obviously still in Ninja mode and no one can see what I write anymore.

Bit like sitting on the Cpsa board really.....when there......I would give the correct answer to a problem posted....then it would be taken off into discussion for hours...and then one of the others would suggest exactly what I suggested hours earlier...and offer it for a vote....like the true hero of the situation.

Wonder if this is just a 'man' thing.....or......maybe I was a ninja there too......and was never actually at a meeting at all.....

Life......it s just a lot of Ying and Yang :laugh:

 

[Les53]

Life......it s just a lot of Ying and Yang :laugh:

Down here we have a saying !!!  "Same sh*te different day"........just saying...... :laugh:

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Wow...you can see me.....are you a ninja tooooo?

 

[Les53]

Wow...you can see me.....are you a ninja tooooo?

Not telling.......ssshhhhh.......it's a secret!!!

 

[Hamster]

He makes some very important claims for his chokes performance over other brands, do you think it is all smoke and mirrors or do they work better? Many shooters have claimed to have benefitted from using his chokes but the power of marketing suggestion is amazing and placebo effect is high in many blind tests. I am waiting for a pair to arrive to try in my own gun. I am going to do a side by side patterning to see the difference .. if any.

Everyone makes claims, nothing wrong with that but like everything you just have to read between the lines. The only reason I don't shoot Mullers is because I prefer flush so waiting for the day he makes those available. The good thing with Muller is that he has simplified things and reduced a 9-10 choke option list down to half and as a knowledgeable shooter will say there is so little difference between Skeet and 1/4 or LM and half, you might as well just think in easy numbers.

 

[jwpzx9r]

From what I have read on his site it is unlikely he will ever make a flush fit choke. He states that he has arrived at the dimensions of his chokes by experiment and that they are the length and diameter they are because they need to be to attain the desired pattern.

 

[no.1topdog]

Everyone makes claims, nothing wrong with that but like everything you just have to read between the lines. The only reason I don't shoot Mullers is because I prefer flush so waiting for the day he makes those available. The good thing with Muller is that he has simplified things and reduced a 9-10 choke option list down to half and as a knowledgeable shooter will say there is so little difference between Skeet and 1/4 or LM and half, you might as well just think in easy numbers.

Do you think that Flush Mullers will give you better patterns than your original flush chokes, or flush chokes from Briley, Teague, Rhino etc?

I thought the idea behind extended chokes was to make the choke taper less severe, giving the pellets a better (less crushing) ride through the constriction, resulting in less deformation of shot and better patterns. There's only so much you can do with a standard flush choke due to its relatively short length, and the original manufacturer has probably made it as smooth a taper as they can.

 

[Hamster]

Do you think that Flush Mullers will give you better patterns than your original flush chokes, or flush chokes from Briley, Teague, Rhino etc?

I thought the idea behind extended chokes was to make the choke taper less severe, giving the pellets a better (less crushing) ride through the constriction, resulting in less deformation of shot and better patterns. There's only so much you can do with a standard flush choke due to its relatively short length, and the original manufacturer has probably made it as smooth a taper as they can.

I have had a fair few guns, some fixed but mostly multi chokes and of those only the 682E and a Teknys have what you may call extended. I have not noticed any difference in either quality of breaks or how they look on paper and would happily pay to watch someone who can. I personally wouldn't bet a penny on picking out a difference between the standard ext Optima's and the Brileys, save for the fact I have always felt the yellow band Optima seem to crunch harder than their 1/4 rating would suggest but this could easily be Beretta playing games and tightening things up on purpose.

Impartial material that I've read suggests chokes only need a couple of inches to do their stuff, granted the extended gang tell us a more graduated taper causes less damage to pellets etc, and it sounds feasible but it doesn't appear to hold true in real life. The Zoli for instance had stubby little things but you just had to see the breaks when you hit something with anything over half. My old spec 682 had short chokes as did a Teagued Miroku, neither leaving anything to be desired. The reason I like flush is partly to do with aesthetics but most definitely influenced by the fact they won't fit in the gun cabinet without removal from the gun.

Mullers would be lovely because they're easy on the head and seem to hold tight. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

I never change my chokes because of the discipline I shoot. If the gun I had bought had fixed chokes I would be happy with that and the next gun I buy will have fixed chokes of that I will be sure. The reason I am going to try Muller chokes is purely because of what has been said about the even pattern they throw. I have also heard on one or two sites that the standard Browning choke is less than the best. So for not a lot of money I can give them a try. Lets be honest if you put the shot on target you will break it, the idea behind the Muller so I am lead to believe is the pattern is more even and so if you are not bang on the edge of the pattern is less holey and more likely to get you a target?

 

[Les53]

I never change my chokes because of the discipline I shoot. If the gun I had bought had fixed chokes I would be happy with that and the next gun I buy will have fixed chokes of that I will be sure. The reason I am going to try Muller chokes is purely because of what has been said about the even pattern they throw. I have also heard on one or two sites that the standard Browning choke is less than the best. So for not a lot of money I can give them a try. Lets be honest if you put the shot on target you will break it, the idea behind the Muller so I am lead to believe is the pattern is more even and so if you are not bang on the edge of the pattern is less holey and more likely to get you a target?

Well yes John, that sounds about right, however haveyou actually tested the patterns that your gun throws? There may well be nothing wrong with what you have now. If you are getting good breaks why worry too much? Also please don't forget that no matter how good a choke may be with shell X, it may be totally different with shell Y, because as you know, all shells are different.

 

[timps]

I don’t disagree with your view or Jimmy Muller’s conclusions on this subject  and considering I have never patterned them I couldn’t  anyway.

The only problem I  have is with that Muller sub forum, he has in the past posted some factually incorrect or contradictory  information and  so have  other posters in praise of Muller’s. In a normal forum someone then comes along and disagrees so a debate ensues, unfortunately Jimmy throws his toys out of the pram and gets the posts deleted and the posters banned from the Muller sub forum. It’s his sub forum so it’s his rules but seeing how it pans out on that sub forum I tend not to read into things posted on it anymore as there is no reasoned debate only pro what Jimmy says.

His classic was “All velocities catch up to each other at approx 42 yards due to physics” whilst I agree with most of the reasons why he preferred the slower shot shells his dogged defence of that one line was cringe worthy, even though some posters were just trying to get a rise out of it he could have handled it a lot better.  Unfortunately most of the posts appertaining to it have gone now.

Also I have seen at least two different reasons he has given for the Beretta chokes splitting from a mistake on a blueprint to a new taper design  that caused  issues on one batch so he went back to the original, if he had just stuck to one story I would have had more faith in him.

I have owned a set of  Muller’s  they were certainly not the wonder choke that some claim but they were not rubbish either as others also try to claim. I am on flush Teague’s now  and my scores did not miraculously drop or increase so will stick with those until something new and shiny attracts my attention. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Well yes John, that sounds about right, however haveyou actually tested the patterns that your gun throws? There may well be nothing wrong with what you have now. If you are getting good breaks why worry too much? Also please don't forget that no matter how good a choke may be with shell X, it may be totally different with shell Y, because as you know, all shells are different.

That is a winter project Les ! Something to take up a bit of time trying one choke set against the other and also a few different shells through the test as well... nice experiment which if I get it all done I may publish here.

 

[Les53]

That is a winter project Les ! Something to take up a bit of time trying one choke set against the other and also a few different shells through the test as well... nice experiment which if I get it all done I may publish here.

Well that should keep you amused then John!!! Are going to use a pattern plate and actual targets?

 

[jwpzx9r]

Yes Les going to shoot a couple of days with the different shells I normally use then do the patterning tests. I can't test the chokes first because I would not be testing with an open mind otherwise. If I do shoot better with one set of chokes I may be able to see the reason why in the patterns or at least partially attribute the improvement to them. To be honest though as you already know an large part of shooting is in the mind when it comes to changing things, we hope things will be better and sometimes they are but it is nowt to do with the equipment and everything to do with belief! If I do shoot better with the new chokes it could be about believing that the choke will help but if backed up by better patterns that could put a different slant on things. Again however as you know one day you shoot better than another so its very difficult to prove the worth is it not?