Please don't read if you're not into chokes

[teepee1234]

Wot's a choke??  :crazy:

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Here's a thread from trapshooters.com.  Quite a ways down you will find the Neil Winston posts.  NW is a very different contributor - he actually conducts experiments!

At any rate you may find his info of note

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=336655&Messages=30

He also has recently posted on a couple other topics that might jostle some but dull for others

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=319607&Messages=64

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=336743&Messages=24

 

[Skeet UK]

I never change my chokes because of the discipline I shoot. If the gun I had bought had fixed chokes I would be happy with that and the next gun I buy will have fixed chokes of that I will be sure. The reason I am going to try Muller chokes is purely because of what has been said about the even pattern they throw. I have also heard on one or two sites that the standard Browning choke is less than the best. So for not a lot of money I can give them a try. Lets be honest if you put the shot on target you will break it, the idea behind the Muller so I am lead to believe is the pattern is more even and so if you are not bang on the edge of the pattern is less holey and more likely to get you a target?

Some important things to remember.

- Read my review, in my Sig.

- Jim Muller, has not jumped on a "bandwagon"

- If you are an average shooter, you should get more kills.  If you are an awesome shooter, you may get the extra 1 or two that make the difference.  They will not turn you into Ed Solomons or even Gebben Miles

- Ask yourself why, with other choke manufacturers...the extension beyond the barrel, is the same length, for different guns

How can the geometry of the chokes be different, if they are designed to do the same thing?

Briley Beretta Optima "Titanium" Choke

Briley Krieghoff "Titanium" Choke.

How can those two chokes perform in a similar manner, while being so different in length?

 

[OlafUK]

Having read through the various posts on this thread, i was wondering if anyone has seen the following:

http://www.shotgun-insight.com/PatternOptimiser.html

I did a quick search in the forum and couldn't find a mention so thought I'd share. Apologies if this has been mentioned in other threads.

Discovered this a few years ago, but haven't tried to use it. Apparently a piece of software that will analyse your thrown pattern from your shotgun cartridge combo and let you know how good the pattern is. Okay, that's my summary of it and I'm sure is a hell of a lot more complicated than that.

Could be of use in jwpzx9r's experiment?

Apologies for spelling sat on crowded bus in Bristol on iPhone

 

[chippy]

Wot's a choke??  :crazy:

 helps your car start on a cold morning

 

[Angelfire]

Off post, excuse me,

MMMmmm, much debate on choke and the pattern they throw - but nowt said over the length of the shot string (might have missed it) which is of equal importance. Just saying.

Phil*

 

[jwpzx9r]

Off post, excuse me,

MMMmmm, much debate on choke and the pattern they throw - but nowt said over the length of the shot string (might have missed it) which is of equal importance. Just saying.

Phil*

Offt! Now you've gone and said "shot string" oh dear

 

[chippy]

Yes you mix chokes and shot string on the same thread this could go on for ever

 

[Hamster]

Here's a thread from trapshooters.com.  Quite a ways down you will find the Neil Winston posts.  NW is a very different contributor - he actually conducts experiments!

At any rate you may find his info of note

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=336655&Messages=30

He also has recently posted on a couple other topics that might jostle some but dull for others

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=319607&Messages=64

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=336743&Messages=24

Thanks Wonko,

It's worth pasting this extract from Neil :

Say you had four choke tubes in a box. Two were Teagues, one flush, one extended. Two were Brileys, one flush, one extended.

Without looking, you put one the top barrel of your O/U, the other in the lower. They may be two Teagues, two Brileys, or one of each, in either barrel. Similarly, they may be two flush or two extended or one of each, in either berrel.

If you were actually pattern them with shells from the same box, ten shots from each barrel, every pellet counted by Shotgun Insight and so on (no one would actually do this, of course) you would probably get the following result.

1. One barrel might (or might not) shoot a little tighter than the other. Depending in the specific configuration, it might be the Teague. Or the Briley. And it might be the flush one. Or the extended one.

2. The most likely outcome is that there would be no difference at all - a couple/few pellets on the average, but most of the time you would have patterns "typical" of either manufacturer, either choke-length.

3. You won't find a statistically-significant difference no matter which chokes you happened to choose.

In other words, all those credible-sounding "reasons" for preferring long chokes with parallel were just palaver. You read them in some magazine to be sure, or heard them at the club, or just worked it out on your own using common sense. But it's just imaginary. It invents "reasons" for things being different which are not, most of the time different, and when they _are_ different, they may be different in the predicted way or in the opposite way.

They are fairy tales. Sure, everyone wants "reasons," but what good are reasons which which are just conjured out of thin air rather than fact? What good are predictions which are wrong most of the time?

Neil

 

[Hamster]

I don’t disagree with your view or Jimmy Muller’s conclusions on this subject  and considering I have never patterned them I couldn’t  anyway.

The only problem I  have is with that Muller sub forum, he has in the past posted some factually incorrect or contradictory  information and  so have  other posters in praise of Muller’s. In a normal forum someone then comes along and disagrees so a debate ensues, unfortunately Jimmy throws his toys out of the pram and gets the posts deleted and the posters banned from the Muller sub forum. It’s his sub forum so it’s his rules but seeing how it pans out on that sub forum I tend not to read into things posted on it anymore as there is no reasoned debate only pro what Jimmy says.

His classic was “All velocities catch up to each other at approx 42 yards due to physics” whilst I agree with most of the reasons why he preferred the slower shot shells his dogged defence of that one line was cringe worthy, even though some posters were just trying to get a rise out of it he could have handled it a lot better.  Unfortunately most of the posts appertaining to it have gone now.

Also I have seen at least two different reasons he has given for the Beretta chokes splitting from a mistake on a blueprint to a new taper design  that caused  issues on one batch so he went back to the original, if he had just stuck to one story I would have had more faith in him.

I have owned a set of  Muller’s  they were certainly not the wonder choke that some claim but they were not rubbish either as others also try to claim. I am on flush Teague’s now  and my scores did not miraculously drop or increase so will stick with those until something new and shiny attracts my attention. 

When I copy and pasted this from ShotgunWorld I wasn't aware it belonged to his forum, there are a number of other related threads that would serve the same purpose, but you have to admit though that coming from someone who has had reason to test to see if HE could offer a wider spread solution than Cylinder then it has to be taken seriously. 

All manufacturers make claims, Teague (used to at any rate) claim the profile of their chokes led to reduced recoil  :comando:  , other ported versions from a multitude of suppliers claim the same  :banghead:  , but ultimately you just have to pick something that suits you. What you cannot deny is that there are several claims made by Muller that ARE provable such as their lightness, the fact they don't work loose as readily as others, they do remain clean and their 1234 system of overlapping chokes IS simpler with zero drawback. 

 

[maddmatt]

Very interesting reading, would like to know how the Muller chokes produce the overlapping and whether this is possible with a fixed choke (just for comparison)? Anyone on here use these with a MK38? If you do how have you found them?

 

[K80 TCG]

I really like my muller's do they make me shoot better no probably not, do the breaks look better and give me confidence yes they do.

They do pattern better, and you have to find a cartridge they like...

There is something in the madness here.

I spent an afternoon with different chokes shooting at the same target and the muller gave the best patterns, and best breaks......but then again I may be a sucker for the hype

 

[Hamster]

Very interesting reading, would like to know how the Muller chokes produce the overlapping and whether this is possible with a fixed choke (just for comparison)? Anyone on here use these with a MK38? If you do how have you found them?

Well overlapping is maybe too simplistic but essentially he's done away with Cyl (sorry Neg) then Cyl, Sk, 1/4 - LM - 1/2 - 5/8 - 3/4 - LF - F - XF - XXF - Turkey, gawdalmighty :rabbi:   , which lets face it is no good to man or beast and just produced Muller 1234. In crude terms a 3 is just under 3/4 and a 2 just over 1/4 and since nobody needs anything more precise, that's good enough for most of mankind.

 

[Skeet UK]

Very interesting reading, would like to know how the Muller chokes produce the overlapping and whether this is possible with a fixed choke (just for comparison)? Anyone on here use these with a MK38? If you do how have you found them?

Please see review in my Sig.

Because the pellets are more evenly distributed across the width of the pattern, rather than just 15 inches or so in the centre, a given choke is effective at longer distances than you might expect, for that constriction,

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

Very interesting reading, would like to know how the Muller chokes produce the overlapping and whether this is possible with a fixed choke (just for comparison)? Anyone on here use these with a MK38? If you do how have you found them?

Hi Matt using them in my Mk38 and have been for some time No2/3 as far as I am concerned they cover all my needs and leave me without the need to worry about swapping chokes  not a week goes by without someone commenting on the breaks I get its as if you are shooting full choke if I remember right your using a fixed choke otherwise I would have mailed them to you to try for a few weeks.

 

[maddmatt]

Please see review in my Sig.

Because the pellets are more evenly distributed across the width of the pattern, rather than just 15 inches or so in the centre, a given choke is effective at longer distances than you might expect, for that constriction,

Yeah I did read your article, I was curious how he has managed to do this and wondered if this patterning meant you can use a number 2 more effectively if you typically are used to tighter chokes?

Shaun, would be interested to see how they perform, where you shooting in the nest few weeks?

 

[maddmatt]

This is interesting for all you, "if the gun is pointing in the right direction you will break the clay" brigade http://justchoking.co.uk/do-chokes-make-a-difference/

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

Shaun, would be interested to see how they perform, where you shooting in the nest few weeks?                   

Got a few busy weeks ahead Matt so nothing to exciting but if you can find a multi to borrow then let me know and I will pop them in the post then you can fill your boots.

 p.s don't leave the country though :spiteful:

 

[maddmatt]

What chokes should the multi have, factory original in terms of thread etc? Sorry if this is a stupid question but chokes are not normally my thing...

 

[Skeet UK]

Yeah I did read your article, I was curious how he has managed to do this and wondered if this patterning meant you can use a number 2 more effectively if you typically are used to tighter chokes?

Shaun, would be interested to see how they perform, where you shooting in the nest few weeks?

I know that some people feel they can cover most eventualities with U2/U2.  I have been shooting this combo and doing very nicely with my best sporting score of 86ex100 just a couple of weeks back.

If you are used to using tighter chokes, that suggests possibly 3/4 usually?  In which case, you could use U3/U2 or U3/U3 and see great results.

Gebben Miles uses U/3U3 for most stuff. I think Ed Solomons has pairs of U3 and U4.