Proofed for steel?

[ehb102]

Having taken an absolute bath on my last gun (you can go wrong with a brand name) I'm upgrading to something that suits me better. I was looking at a 682 gold E but a very good friend has offered me a Perazzi. The gun is great, it's a very generous offer as it's way below market price, but I don't think it's proofed for steel. Given the political climate would I be mad to buy a gun that can't do steel? 

 

[Jonny English]

It certainly has to be a consideration. I would want the security that my gun was steel proofed in the current climate. But you can also cross that bridge when it happens. I have just changed guns to a 725 and I wouldn't have bought a non steel proofed gun with the way things are going.

 

[CharlesP]

I personally wouldn't worry. 

But as I'm literally on the brink of a new gun I would dearly love to hear about your last one.. Just the maker will do..

 

[FreeShot]

We have a certain range here that alows steel shot only. I have shot 2 years with my Browning Ultra there along with others with Berettas 682, 692, Perazzi...all guns with tight trap chokes that were not steel proofed - no problem as far as I know.

We shoot either RC2 or Clever Steel loads (24 and 28g).

IMO as long as one uses "STANDARD STEEL" sporting steel cartridges that are NOT classified as "HIGH PERFORMANCE STEEL" one is good to go - still decision is yours - I'd take it.

Here is an interesting article regarding all the fuss:

http://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/duck/hunting-methods/non-toxic-shot/steel-shot-standards-pressures-and-proofing

 

[Dog Tyred]

As a matter of interest if lead shot were ever to be banded would 'the government' be required under law to compensate those that have non-steel proofed guns? 

Can anyone tell me what happened (re: compensation) when 'they' knee-jerk banded legal hand gun ownership following Dunblane ?

DT

 

[Darkside]

Hand gun owners got shafted...

 

[BTC3]

Go for the p-gun and worry about steel later. Is it a dedicated skeet, or MC?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RobertBeard]

There was compensation for pistol shooters and some did quite well out of it, others did not.

Just because they did does not mean that anyone else will.

Did wildfowlers and duck shooters get compo when lead was banned for use in shooting them?

FAC holders now get warned not to expect compo if the law changes and they lose out.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Steel loads here make no more pressure than lead since who knows what gun they'll be dropped into.  The more critical issue is the chokes as steel is generally less "compressible" (and faster as well) and is shot thru less constrictive choke as a consequence.  Trying to cram a steel load thru a Perazzi full choke is not likely to bring a smile to a proud owners face.

Get the Perazzi and shoot lead anywhere you like.  Defying moronic authority is perfectly acceptable and you are entitled to do it as deviously as may be required.

JMO of course

from the ref'd article:

"In SAAMI, the safety/compatibility of a firearm and ammunition is controlled through chamber pressure. For 12 gauge 2-3/4" and 3" ammunition, SAAMI established 11,500 psi (793 bar) as the maximum test pressure of an ammunition sample of 10 shots fired at time of loading. NOTE: this value is for all shot shell products manufactured for 12 gauge 2-3/4" and 3" ammunition; lead shot – all shot sizes, buck shot – all shot sizes, slugs – all types, AND steel shot – all shot sizes. This makes sense in that the same firearm may be used with all these product types (see Diagram 1).

The gun is proofed at a significantly higher level. The gun does not know if lead shot, steel shot, buck shot, or a slug is being fired. The gun sees metal stress as applied by the internal pressure of the cartridge."

 

[ehb102]

I personally wouldn't worry. 

But as I'm literally on the brink of a new gun I would dearly love to hear about your last one.. Just the maker will do..

that won't help alone. It's a 1999 Browning 425. Prices have dropped on the earlier models because of the success of the later 525 and the 725. The 425 has heavy barrels in comparison. My stock was massacred and the wear and tear on other bits is considerable. There is nothing wrong with the working parts. 

Go for the p-gun and worry about steel later. Is it a dedicated skeet, or MC?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No. The upshot of that thread was: get your sporter sorted.

Defying moronic authority is perfectly acceptable and you are entitled to do it as deviously as may be required.

Not a good option for  a UK shooter. I could lose my licence and my guns.

 

[Hamster]

Surely the absolute worst case scenario is that you'd have to buy a steel proof set of barrels ? It may even be possible to get the existing set re-sleeved cheaply with steel in mind so if it really is that cheap I'd do it. 

 

[CharlesP]

Or re-proofed for steel. They shouldn't have any trouble.

The problem only really arises if you're planning to shoot steel through tighter chokes...

 

[Jim Wheeler]

there are a couple of things to consider with steel shot, first is use open chokes, no more than 1/2 choke. steel shot will bulge the choke area ,nothing to do with pressures, but steel much harder than lead, so there is no `give` at the choke.

 second is barrel damage, if shot contacts the tubes, numerous small scratches ,which will hold rust on older guns, same apples to dirty cartridges, a bit of sand or other rubbish will score even chrome barrels,, and most likely will not polish out,, hence reduction in Value...  your choice at the end of the day !

 

[wylye]

Briley chokes fitted to Perazzis are stamped 'Lead Only'.

 

[ehb102]

Reproofing, resleeving, I had not considered. Thanks, that was helpful.

 

[timps]

CIP standard steel shot can be shot through any nitro proofed gun and any choke, you might in some cases get excessive wear on some very old guns but it is designed to be backward compatible with all Nirto proofed guns fixed full choke included. It is limited in burst pressure, working pressure, mean velocity and shot size to accommodate this backward comparability.  If you look on standard steel shot cartridge box there is no warning about steel proof just ricochets.

HP steel does requires steel proof, if you look on the cartridge box it will contain these warnings:  

- 'Only for use in weapons designed to fire steel shot cartridges and bearing the Steel Shot proof mark' 
- 'Where the steel shot diameter exceeds 4 mm, it is only to be fired from weapons bearing the Steel Shot proof mark and having barrels fitted with a choke less than 0.5 mm' 
'Beware of ricochets: avoid firing at rigid and hard surfaces'.

If you are going to use the gun solely for clays there would not be an issue as clay loads would be standard steel, if however, you intend to use it for hunting and/or game you would be limited in cartridge choice.

I would not go down the reproofing route unless you want to use hunting loads.

The CIP steel proof test:

"According to CIP an HP steel/steel-like cartridge is to be fired only through a gun that has passed steel shot proof (which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel compared to the standard nitro proof) and the gun then marked “Steel Shot” and with Fleur-de-Lys.

A gun not so marked would be deemed not to have passed steel shot proof and so not suitable/safe to fire HP steel/steel-like cartridges. That is not to say that such a gun would necessarily be damaged but CIP would maintain that the risk of its being so is increased."

so absolutely pointless for clay loads

 

[ehb102]

Great post, thanks. Very useful. I sent it to my major sponsor

 

[Wonko the Sane]

A good many Perazzis are "double" proofed and you will see on the bottom of the monobloc the double stamp indicating that.  My copy of the proof chart absolutely refuses to copy but the code is a double circled star above the "PSF"  and indicates a proof of 17637psi.  I can't tell you how that relates to "steel" proofs but it is good for 3"mag shells FWIW

again - the chokes are all that count

 

[timps]

In Europe it is different to the USA, chokes do not matter on standard steel shot regarding safety, the cartridges have a lower service pressure than the equivalent lead both here and over in the USA.

It is taken into consideration that full choke with a steep angle could be in one of the barrels, bearing this in mind the limits of what are allowed in a CIP standard steel cartridge take this into consideration so it is safe to use.

Anything that might damage a nitro  PSF** proofed steep angle full choke is then put into HP steel category.  

The HP steel we have here in Europe  allows   significantly higher pressures than all 12 gauge shells available in the United States so 3 1/2 magnum steel load that you use in the USA might be significantly lower in pressure that one available over here. So what works for you might not work over here if someone buys the latest marketing mans idea of what we need regarding velocity and pressure.

The USA take the view that steel is not fired through more than half choke as they don't have the two different levels of cartridge so you could damage a full choke using an SAAMI  steel cartridge, hence why Briley say not for steel on their Perazzi chokes as its for SAAMI standards.

The confusion often arises because people read an article or opinion that stems from the USA not realising we have a totally different system that has been specifically designed so we can shoot steel in our older fixed full choked guns where as the USA doesn't.