Proper Cartridges

[Garwood]

There could be several reasons why Proper Cartridges aren't pushing the clay cartridges at the prices suggested:

Not enough capacity on existing machines so why bother replacing existing sales with lower margin ones.

There's not enough margin in budget clay loads to be profitable (seems likely to me).

Can't buy the components in big enough volumes to get to the suggested pricing (linked to above, and also seems likely to me).

Doesn't want to upset the component suppliers because they are his competitors too (I think).

Niche assembler/manufacturer, normally better suited to low volumes, high margins.

Doesn't want to deal with lots of relatively small end users, rather deal with fewer distributors who cause him less hassle (I could understand that).

So I dont think he's being a 'thick Geordie' but there's probably more to it. Also, lead pricing is a bit more complex than just buying some when the price is low, and not buying any when its high. The major importers will have to be forward ordering up to six months in advance, and therefore carrying quite big stocks. So when the price falls they're likely to be sitting on a lot of stock and can't reduce prices. That's certainly the way it worked in the automotive industry.

I personally don't think there's enough margin, even for the big boys, to flood the market with cheap shells.

I think it`s going to be easier to undercut the big boys on game loads too,as they obviously have a much greater profit margin on them as has been discussed earlier.George`s products seem to do this well,however clay loads must be a tougher market to undercut and keep a workable margin on.

Back to the popcorn,..

 

[DavidJ]

He's far from thick! I've asked localy and eveyone knows George, he's made plenty if money from his businesses over the years.

I think making cartridges is almost a hobby business.

 

[jwpzx9r]

I simply do not believe there is not a pretty tidy profit to be made making and  selling clay target shooting cartridges. If you look at the price of RIO target load cartridges for example. The cartridges to my knowledge are made in Spain? I can buy them here in France for €172/ thou which is about £145 and both the shop and RIO are making profit, in fact you can get a reduction of 10% if you buy 3000. Now Just Cartridges sell them for £193/thou or €229 . Now if as the name suggests Just cartridges only sell cartridges they must be making a pretty tidy profit so much so they are having to move to a bigger premises !    BUT to suggest that any cartridge manufacturer sells their product with a scant mark up on their own costs makes no sense at all. Rio will be doing alright thank you very much, they are not a charity donating their product to let someone else make the profit, and so are Just Cartridges... unbelievably so! The difference in cost between here and in the UK is huge it cannot all be down to transport and exchange rates. Even more ridiculous I can buy RIO start team EVO for €220/ thou now that is about £185 .... just cartridges want .... £280 !!!!!!!!!!!! unless their catalogue is out of date?

 

[Westward]

Rio and other imported shells sell at rip off prices because the main UK makers have proved that's what the UK market wll bear. I don't for one second believe that any clay shells on the UK market are sold on a 'cost plus' basis. Instead, it's all about judging how much the punters are willing to stump up to feed their sport.

Given that there's virtually no R&D or product development costs and they have the kind of buying power that gets component prices down to the bone, shell makers are doing very, very nicely out us - mugs that we are.

If you're selling 10 million clay shells a year you don't need much margin percentage to make tons of money...

 

[jwpzx9r]

Given that there's virtually no R&D or product development costs and they have the kind of buying power that gets component prices down to the bone, shell makers are doing very, very nicely out us - mugs that we are.

Don't say things like that there are some on here that actually believe that there is some correlation between the price of a cartridge and the QC, R&D and the likely hood that you will break the target you are shooting at... just because you spent more... never mind though a shooter out of you league won a competition using them so they must be better and add to your score !

 

[Jim Wheeler]

jwpzx9r  Can you tell me what is the VAT rate in france, please? obviously, it`s 20% in the UK, i wonder if that has a bearing? Also, anyone know if there is import duty on carts and components ? Is there any  tax relaxation for sporting equipment ?

 

[jwpzx9r]

jwpzx9r  Can you tell me what is the VAT rate in france, please? obviously, it`s 20% in the UK, i wonder if that has a bearing? Also, anyone know if there is import duty on carts and components ? Is there any  tax relaxation for sporting equipment ?

The rate of VAT here is 18.5%  for cartridges. What I should point out is that prices vary here too... but not much for example the same Star team EVO RIO's are €232 at another shop but that is still way cheaper than JC are charging .

 

[Nicko]

This is quite old as its from 2012, but here is the summary of accounts for Gamebore.

I believe their turnover for last year was over £15m.

 

[Bebo]

6.4% profit on turnover after tax.  Doesn't sound like that huge a money spinner to me.

 

[Jim Wheeler]

IInteresting  figures. so, seems not much profit for 12m, about 7% , also shows they make about 72 million carts a year,  as isaid earlier post, over one and a half  million a week. and how many manufacturers are there?  like American  companies etc?

 

[Rupert]

6.4% profit on turnover after tax.  Doesn't sound like that huge a money spinner to me.

This slim figure includes the margin on the higher end shells too, i bet its less than 3% on budgets.

This would also indicate to me you are better as a retailer than a manufacturer

 

[schmokinn]

profit after tax for year to December 2015 a shade under 2 million..i would be happy with 38,000 pounds a week.

16 million turnover 12.5% profit after tax

Not footballer money i know but not to shabby!

And a pretty good increase over 3 years

Tax return attached

View attachment application-pdf.pdf

 

[Hamster]

You'd be surprised how low industry net profits are as a percentage of turnover, can be as low as half that for main dealers. You'd be even more surprised at how little tax corporations pay on real world profits via creative accountancy and legal loopholes. Of course we have no idea as to how "little" they choose to pay themselves in salaries and benefits  nothing wrong in that just saying nothing is quite as you might at first think. 

Any industry returning huge profits is soon flooded by competition which in the end balances things out. 

 

[Westward]

Anything over 10% after tax is very good going.

Of course in 2015 the pound was relatively high but I must have been away somewhere when they dropped their shell prices. :wink:

 

[jwpzx9r]

This tells me that someone is making a killing somewhere look at the link below and see that RIO target load are available at €58 per 250 so €232 per 1000 then look at JC price for the same . I have seen them cheaper too but this is just one I came across. when you have worked it all through unless JC prices are out of date there is a staggering difference in price between UK and France... they are even cheaper in Spain!

http://armurerie-auxjoursdechasse.com/250-cartouches-de-balltrap-calibre-12-rio-star-team-evo-28g.html

so are we saying that there is no money to be making and  made selling cartridges ?

Edit

what I have found interesting is that I have at last found a shop in France that sells British cartridges!  Express and the prices are almost the same as those on the JC website very slightly more expensive but only a few pounds per thousand ??

 

[Jim Wheeler]

This tells me that someone is making a killing somewhere look at the link below and see that RIO target load are available at €58 per 250 so €232 per 1000 then look at JC price for the same . I have seen them cheaper too but this is just one I came across. when you have worked it all through unless JC prices are out of date there is a staggering difference in price between UK and France... they are even cheaper in Spain!

http://armurerie-auxjoursdechasse.com/250-cartouches-de-balltrap-calibre-12-rio-star-team-evo-28g.html

so are we saying that there is no money to be making and  made selling cartridges ?




 




 

Quite correct. I have had this discussion before when dealers claim as "loss leaders" , which is why i ask about taxes  duty,etc, 

funny that after being loaded on a ship to South Africa, then trucked to JHB 400 miles, then retailed for anything up to 20% cheaper than retail in UK. Same with guns, and clays , etc !

 

[MDP]

so are we saying that there is no money to be making and  made selling cartridges ?

No, just questioning the feasibilty of a small assembler competing on budget loads...

There is clearly profit to be made in cartridges, but if Gamebore for example, replaced a load of there higher margin shells with even more budget ones I bet they'd soon be loss making. But I may be completely wrong!

 

[ChrisPackham]

Budget stuff is often a loss leader.. 120K ish between bottom and top range Porsche sports car, £12k difference in cost of manufacturing

 

[Aris]

Budget stuff is often a loss leader.. 120K ish between bottom and top range Porsche sports car, £12k difference in cost of manufacturing

Exactly why George sells mainly game loads.  Cost of components is the same as clay loads, but he can steal some margin from the larger manufacturers.

 

[Hamster]

Budget stuff is often a loss leader.. 120K ish between bottom and top range Porsche sports car, £12k difference in cost of manufacturing

Good example but I doubt the percentages are quite as savage with cartridges, besides we're not asking George for bin end budget stuff but a decent mid range shell which may well go on to sell in pretty tidy quantities.