Referees are people too

[ehb102]

I shot my first A/R today. Started off okay but on the ABT the ref/buttoner called one of my second barrel kills as a loss. I objected, and the squad backed me up and he said sorry, didn't see that. Next peg same thing again, but this time the guy on my right told the ref that maybe he should wait until I shot the second barrel before looking down at his clipboard (my hero!)

What do you do when this kind of thing happens? 

 

[Hamster]

I shot my first A/R today. Started off okay but on the ABT the ref/buttoner called one of my second barrel kills as a loss. I objected, and the squad backed me up and he said sorry, didn't see that. Next peg same thing again, but this time the guy on my right told the ref that maybe he should wait until I shot the second barrel before looking down at his clipboard (my hero!)

What do you do when this kind of thing happens? 

I try and not get involved on posts that practically assume anyone who questions a call must be trying to cheat  :mellow: , I have seen poor scoring and will always back up a shooter if I have seen the break. 

 

[ehb102]

I try and not get involved on posts that practically assume anyone who questions a call must be trying to cheat  :mellow: , 

I'm not trying to cheat. I am not good enough to come close to winning, and I always shoot birds only anyway. 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I always look at shooting anything from the viewpoint that I am a customer.  I am paying for the service providing the targets.  As such I'm entitled to fair value for my expenditure.  Which obviously includes competent ref'ing for a comp.  I've never been shy about correcting a call and hopefully fellow shooters are not as well.  Only backup you have without instant replay.

 

[Steve Lovatt]

I'm generally on the side of the refs either as an employer or competitor , recruiting competent refs is the hardest part of my job and to see them with a crowd of shooters around them saying he hit that makes me a bit disgruntled to say the least , I've had clays taken away in the past that I know I've hit but refs decision is just that a decision . How many times have you all been given clays you know you haven't hit but said nothing , happens to everyone .

zero tolerance for me and my refs when it happens I'm afraid !

 

[Sian]

I'm generally on the side of the refs either as an employer or competitor , recruiting competent refs is the hardest part of my job and to see them with a crowd of shooters around them saying he hit that makes me a bit disgruntled to say the least , I've had clays taken away in the past that I know I've hit but refs decision is just that a decision . How many times have you all been given clays you know you haven't hit but said nothing , happens to everyone .

zero tolerance for me and my refs when it happens I'm afraid !

Well actually I corrected a scorer at Honesberie who marked 8 hits and 2 misses and put 10 at the end of the line.  As it happens I hit 7 so I corrected him.  I can't except a target that I didn't hit especially as I saw it clearly fly on by at quite close range.  I also corrected nearly every young scorer there who were offering every shooter the chance to see the targets before shooting!  Apart from being against the rules, it would have cost Nick a whole heap of targets and a lot of people just let the youngsters do it.  I did leave a message for Nick when I left and as I was early there hopefully it didn't continue for too long.

massive respect for refs, I'm very fond of loads of them but sometimes they do miss very obvious hits because they are human.  I remember going to a shoot where I was shooting and the scorer was marking them as misses.  My squad waited until I was finished then asked politely why he had marked them as misses - his answer - I had only taken bits off and the clays hadn't smashed completely ??????

 

[ehb102]

I can see not disputing a call if the ref is watching but if you can see he points his nose to the floor and is looking in a completely different direction to the clays? I think that I would speak up if it happened to someone else, and I am glad someone spoke up for me. 

I expect Steve has well trained and conscientious refs. This was not at Steve's ground, but was at the ground where a different ref decided that as one of our squad was on their first registered shoot we must all be in need of coaching. I might be in serious need of coaching, but not in a registered shooting, it being cheating. 

I shall just vote with my feet and shoot elsewhere. 

 

[philmoss]

The ref is the shoot organisers representative on each stand, they are there to oversee fair play, safety & comply with the rules of that discipline.

None of my staff are there to get into a arguement.if in serious doubt then go to a jury which is mandatory at any registered event.

Above all "treat as you like be treated", without them you wont have competitions !!

 

[wylye]

The ref is the shoot organisers representative on each stand, they are there to oversee fair play, safety & comply with the rules of that discipline.

None of my staff are there to get into a arguement.if in serious doubt then go to a jury which is mandatory at any registered event.

Above all "treat as you like be treated", without them you wont have competitions !!

If it were a perfect world then this would most certainly be the case. The key word is "referee" unfortunately and finding 12 people who know the rules or are qualified is an almost impossible task. I went to a registered shoot quite recently and I can honestly say there were no referees there at all. Teenagers mostly, looking bored and uninterested with no eye protection and almost certainly no idea whatsoever about the rules and how to enforce them. There was a substantial amount of money in the prize fund and scores were obviously being recorded for classification purposes so I leave the rest to your imagination. Its a disgrace really.

 

[Hamster]

If it were a perfect world then this would most certainly be the case. The key word is "referee" unfortunately and finding 12 people who know the rules or are qualified is an almost impossible task. I went to a registered shoot quite recently and I can honestly say there were no referees there at all. Teenagers mostly, looking bored and uninterested with no eye protection and almost certainly no idea whatsoever about the rules and how to enforce them. There was a substantial amount of money in the prize fund and scores were obviously being recorded for classification purposes so I leave the rest to your imagination. Its a disgrace really.

A completely accurate description of the reality of our sport but I wouldn't quite call it a disgrace because it's simply not possible and certainly not financially viable to have each and every reg events scorers as qualified, mature referees. 

 

[Salopian]

Hamster,

 I will have to disagree a little with the above post.

It is possible to have 'competent ' mature referees on every stand if the ground gets itself organised.

The reason we see so many youngsters who are not interested is because the grounds that employ them usually do not pay enough to employ good referees.

What is a good referee? A person who has been taught the rules and how to apply the rules and not to be influenced by cheats and bullying.

I would think that 99% of all competitors are honest enthusiasts , if we set a standard that discouraged cheating it would disappear very quickly.

Let the referee get on with their job and if they are making mistakes , gently and politely help , encourage and explain.

Referees are the life blood of competition clayshooting, encourage them , not persecute them.

I referee and I try to be even handed and very fair always. If I make a mistake in the competitors opinion , ask me and discuss , but not argue .

We all make mistakes but everything is able to be amicably resolved.

Ehb is penalising a ground by not going there again because of the actions of one incompetent referee who may not even work there ever again?

I have witnessed a referees decision overturned by an organiser that elevated a competitor one place in the competition from 28th to 27th in 'A' class !

Bye the way you did miss it Sir .

Finally , I have supplied glasses and ear protection to numerous grounds free of charge for the use of referees and have seen them not being used.

If a referee or competitor  is not wearing MANDATORY safety wear , refuse to shoot until they do.

If they are deaf ask to see a Doctor's note confirming that they are in deed deaf. or if you want to see a miracle ? 

Call "Lost " quietly on an obviously hit clay.

 

[ehb102]

Ehb is penalising a ground by not going there again because of the actions of one incompetent referee who may not even work there ever again?

Excuse me, first: this is the second bad ref in two out of three registereds, and secondly: I am not penalising a ground, that suggests they are entitled to something I am taking away. Grounds are businesses, they get my money as part of a business transaction. That needs to benefit both of us. I am happy to work with businesses that value feedback, but I think Steve's attitude is probably pretty common for ground owners. It will be "well, what do you want us to do about it?"

 

[wylye]

A completely accurate description of the reality of our sport but I wouldn't quite call it a disgrace because it's simply not possible and certainly not financially viable to have each and every reg events scorers as qualified, mature referees. 

If there are 150 entrants then the nett to the organisers after clays and wages, plus pool shoot takings, is about £3500. Less rent of course but dont tell me its not

financially viable...................

 

[Salopian]

Ehb is penalising a ground by not going there again because of the actions of one incompetent referee who may not even work there ever again?

Excuse me, first: this is the second bad ref in two out of three registereds, and secondly: I am not penalising a ground, that suggests they are entitled to something I am taking away. Grounds are businesses, they get my money as part of a business transaction. That needs to benefit both of us. I am happy to work with businesses that value feedback, but I think Steve's attitude is probably pretty common for ground owners. It will be "well, what do you want us to do about it?"

 Like this

•  
  
• Quote
  

Now you excuse me ! 

I was replying to your  post which clearly states that you will not be patronising a ground because of one bad referee !

Do not move the goal posts.

Also to assume that Steve Lovatt and other ground owners are not bothered and will not do anything about poor refereeing is a very narrow minded view .

Perhaps if you lightened up a bit and got down off your high horse we might find a human within.

 

[tiptop]

I have full respect for ref's out in all weather for us to be able to compete and enjoy our shooting. The one thing that annoys me at the moment is the amount of ref's that just plonk themselves down in their chair and cannot see the full flight of the clay, especially in areas were there are trees and bushes. Not everybody shoots the clay straight of the trap arm. Just an observation, just saying.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I can see not disputing a call if the ref is watching but if you can see he points his nose to the floor and is looking in a completely different direction to the clays? I think that I would speak up if it happened to someone else, and I am glad someone spoke up for me. 

I expect Steve has well trained and conscientious refs. This was not at Steve's ground, but was at the ground where a different ref decided that as one of our squad was on their first registered shoot we must all be in need of coaching. I might be in serious need of coaching, but not in a registered shooting, it being cheating. 

I shall just vote with my feet and shoot elsewhere. 

Absolutely invoke your rights as a paying customer.  I cannot argue with that for a moment.  But I think there is also a responsibility to inform the management of the "why" of you decision and give them a chance to attend to it.  Otherwise it's sorta cutting off the nose... etc situation.

in the olden days there were shoots I left and took my $ with me and grounds I never returned to simply because my reservations about the management were tolerated by enough shooters to make my opinion moot.

Your call - do what is right for you since it's your $

JMO of course

 

[philmoss]

I can only speak as i operate..........

I employ 15 refs on a shoot day, 12 for ESP & 2 STR as well as 1 releif ref to ensure they all get a break (which improves for lack of fatigue & not seeing the smallest of chips !!!!!.)

Out of the 15 refs, the youngest is 18 years old, the others are of varying ages including some refs who have worked at National & World events.out of the 15, 3 are not CPSA qualified but are as good as (and better than some CPSA qualified ones i have experianced over the years), they all get renumerated & fed and watered well, there words not mine.......Peanuts & Monkeys come to mind  :angel: :angel:   

 

[Luke725]

A refs a ref to me if they do there job to there best abilities that will do for me ... Grounds differ on facebook orston advertise for refs (students ..... Nothing against them or orston  ) 

On the otherhand kegworth employs mature refs and are fair an freindly 

the only thing what i find bad about young refs 

. Ive seen shooters get quite stern with them saying that there was a delay in you sending second bird an 9 timesout of ten they will say im sorry have pair again 

. Ive also seen shooters where there that high in game where 1 clay matters on high gun or class  get slightley aggresive when the say kill loss say i hit that a peice came off then turn round to there mates an say i did an they all agree ( when the dident ) i know i should state they dident but im concentrating on my own shooting dont need agro off a group  

. The last point what i see regulary is a group of 5/6 shooters first goesup can i see a pair .... Pair shown 3rd in line can i see a pair ........ Pair shown 6th shooter can i see a pair ive been doing this or ive just turned up ( most cost grounds a fair amount ) 

at kegworth with the mature refs ive seen 1 of them tell a group ( he had every right to ) tell them is everybody watching to see the birds an also when joe bloggs says he ant seen them ( when they have) tell them you no the rules i saw you in the group to watch the birds 

 

[ehb102]

Absolutely invoke your rights as a paying customer.  I cannot argue with that for a moment.  But I think there is also a responsibility to inform the management of the "why" of you decision and give them a chance to attend to it.  Otherwise it's sorta cutting off the nose... etc situation.

in the olden days there were shoots I left and took my $ with me and grounds I never returned to simply because my reservations about the management were tolerated by enough shooters to make my opinion moot.

Your call - do what is right for you since it's your $

JMO of course

Thanks, Wonko. Very sensible post. Did someone write it for you? ;-)

Some people you give up trying to share feedback with. Some people tell shooters to F*** off when feedback is shared. That wasn't me, but I heard all about it. I've given my share of feedback, including positive feedback, but if there isn't someone wanting to here it then you just get labelled a complainer.

A contact has suggested that said ref isn't usually a problem as a ref, so I wonder if there's something personal going on, such as he's having eyesight problems and is worried about seeing to write. I mean, I wouldn't blame him if he assumed I was going to miss, but contact said that this ref is usually competent.