Rules / Refs

[Rosso]

​How much are clays? How much is the rent? How about advertising? Trap maintenance? Wages for setting up/breaking down? Vehicles/transport? Oh - and don't forget the 20%VAT to pay on every entry. One way to make a small fortune out of clay shooting is to start with a large one. (This is a joke by the way - ask another contributor on this site)

On the quote above A Rowley shoot.

Let's say. £1000 scorers, £1000 clays, £1000 admin, £1000 equipment, £1000 vat, that still leaves £4000. Not bad for a weeks work. But you will prob say they do it for the love of it and don't make a brass farthing. 

 

[wylye]

I wouldn't suggest that for one moment. If you do it for nothing then you're a mug. All I would say is that your calculations are an indication of your lack of understanding. Ask the shoot organisers - see what they say.

 

[evoracer]

I think you show a fine example of what we are discussing.

​I think you'll find you're a example of the problem rather than addressing an issue you'd rather bite the had that feeds you! I know a builders merchant just give me an address to get that sand delivered to to bury your head into! 

 

[Will Hewland]

There will always be an intriguing balance in peoples minds with this. The shoot organiser is running a business, while the customers are pursuing their hobby. So, both sides are dealing with love of the sport and cash, but the balance of importance is a little different from each side. I make products that are used in an expensive hobby and it is sometimes very necessary to explain to the customers that I cannot be in it just for love, like they are.

 

[Nimbusgb]

On the quote above A Rowley shoot.

Let's say. £1000 scorers, £1000 clays, £1000 admin, £1000 equipment, £1000 vat, that still leaves £4000. Not bad for a weeks work. But you will prob say they do it for the love of it and don't make a brass farthing. 

252 shooters, 100 birds = 25200 clays at a pallet rate of around £0.07 ( not including delivery! ) that's £1764 already way beyond the cost you've estimated. For one item.

They have to be stored too so you nee a building or container.

Any real business has to put funds aside to fight noise claims, the cost of cleaning up the ground at some future date, liability insurance. theft insurance.

I'm not convinced anyone is making shed loads of money out of a shooting ground or even any one shoot. They may be making a living but coining it? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Steve Lovatt]

reading with interest and yes i agree with rosso on the maths , or i did until we started running shoots , there are more hidden costs than first spring to mind but like any company thats down to us to manage and get on with it .

i think the major problem here is what a severe lack of people there is coming forward to be refs and scorers on these events , and with some antics of a few people who can blame them 

 

[schmokinn]

i think in general the standards of scorers are pretty good and it is not always down to experience but mostly preperation/training/advice i can think of a couple of grounds that run cpsa shoots that either have very young or irregular "amature?" scorers and i have never had a complaint on the otherhand i can think of some attrocious examples at regularly run shoots.

i have had some scorers tell me they can't really see the targets and asking me if i hit or miss and younger ones that are not even looking what they are doing and are obviously mentally somewhere else.

the thing is as shooters we pay our money and expect to receive a perfect product/service and the reality is you only remember the bad not the good as the good is what is expected and the bad is unacceptable as we/i can be distracted by incidents and it can ruin your day.

i do 100's of jobs for some customers and they never ring up to congratulate me on a great service but when they still have an issue the first thing they do is come to me to complain even though none of these issues has ever been my attributed to me in any way.

thing is if you run a business thats the way things are you are seen as responsible rightly or wrongly so,so scorers are your responsibility and it is up to you to find a way of ensuring they do a perfect job no matter how hard that is.

it is a competition after all and every target counts and if you miss a place by one target miscored you are going to be rightly pissed.

 

[Rosso]

252 shooters, 100 birds = 25200 clays at a pallet rate of around £0.07 ( not including delivery! ) that's £1764 already way beyond the cost you've estimated. For one item.

They have to be stored too so you nee a building or container.

Any real business has to put funds aside to fight noise claims, the cost of cleaning up the ground at some future date, liability insurance. theft insurance.

I'm not convinced anyone is making shed loads of money out of a shooting ground or even any one shoot. They may be making a living but coining it? I seriously doubt it.

All my figures are rounded up down around and around. I don't know or care who makes what they are entitled to a good living. If shoots are that busy then more scorers are needed. It's all relative more shooters =more money = more facilities, toilets, catering all the facilities required to support that amount of people. 

You cannot run shoots of that size on a straw bailer attitude. Run your staff ragged and you won't have any staff. I manage a lot of people and look after every one of them.

All I'm asking for is the losses to be called and see a pair when I need to - that costs nothing so I don't see what all the fuss is about.  

 

[Car.crash]

Shout your own losses then. 

 

[Nimbusgb]

So should each scorer have a buzzer / beeper to buzz you on your misses? Calling every miss could get a bit wearing on anybody after 4 or 5 hours of the average shoot say 2000 clays and up to 1000 hit / miss calls! ( lots of misses to call if I'm around! )

 

[timps]

If you want to run a registered shoot then the ground should at least follow the CPSA rules, so that means all losses must be called as per the rule book.  

If the ground wants to pick and choose what rules it follows then it stands to reason the ground can have no complaints when shooters decided to ignore certain CPSA rules as well.

If the ground cannot get a particular ref to call losses then maybe that person is not a suitable  ref for registered shoots. If the ground doesn’t want to instruct refs to call losses then don’t false advertise and say you are holding a registered shoot to CPSA rules because you are not.

I had it a month ago, came off the stand to the shooter behind congratulating my shooting on a hard stand, when I checked my card I was marked 4 instead of 8, I didn’t even think it was an issue as the kills were as clear as day.

On that particular day I was marked 6 down I hit and gifted one I never hit, blissfully unaware until after I had left the stand and another shooter was now shooting.

Calling losses is not hard to implement,  it is in the rules and stops the shooter from being right royally shafted, if it's too much for the refs then get the CPSA to change the rule.

Everyone makes mistakes,   that’s not the issue, it's the fact as a shooter you are unaware mistakes are being made until it’s too late to challenge as you have left the cage.

 

[Rosso]

Shout your own losses then. 

You don't have a gun, not in the CPSA, so you won't have an issue will you.

 

[Jim Wheeler]

just asking, and no relevance to the OP,   but do reg` shoots pay a `head fee` or a sum of money to cpsa?  after a shoot , I know that FITASC charge a fee per head,, which I forget the amount, I think it is 5 quid a head,, but don't quote me ! as I say, just curious.

 

[wynno]

I ref both fitasc and sporting, and IT CAN be mind numbing, by the end of the day my voice is hoarse and as Wylye says for £50......Stop taking the urine out of the ref's.....remember that if they were not there, be they youngsters,  oldies or fully qualified then you would NOT be able to shoot.

The question is, are shooter's were willing to pay an appropriate amount to ensure that each and every ref / scorer is properly trained and competent in their field.

Somehow I don't think so. 

 

[schmokinn]

Shout your own losses then. 

​what a stunning level of intelligence you have,i will be waiting for your next response with baited breath

 

[schmokinn]

I ref both fitasc and sporting, and IT CAN be mind numbing, by the end of the day my voice is hoarse and as Wylye says for £50......Stop taking the urine out of the ref's.....remember that if they were not there, be they youngsters,  oldies or fully qualified then you would NOT be able to shoot.

The question is, are shooter's were willing to pay an appropriate amount to ensure that each and every ref / scorer is properly trained and competent in their field.

Somehow I don't think so. 

​

​i cannot beleive the consistant excuse that not being paid enough is a reason to not do the job correctly it is not acceptable anywhere else so why should it be here.

if you believe that what you are doing is worth more than you are getting for it then do something constructive about it example get everybody together and tell the ground owners you want better pay.

it is between you and the ground owner who accepts our money to provide a service and then pays you to help provide it,i can honestly not think of any other place where the employee of the business owner expects the customer to take any responsibility for the service provided.

they sell a product that has by definition to adhere to a set of rules and all i am hearing is it is to much trouble and its the shooters problem even thougfh he has paid good money for his entry.

"The question is, are shooter's were willing to pay an appropriate amount to ensure that each and every ref / scorer is properly trained and competent in their field." as for this comment..i will put it in block capitals...YOUR BEEF IS WITH THE GROUND OWNER/SHOOT OPERATOR! they set the fee

"you don't think so"...i regularly pay 40gbp to shoot which is upto 15 pounds more than i have seen other shoots advertised,a lot of leeway in that so again YOUR BEEF IS WITH THE GROUND OWNER/SHOOT OPERATOR!

i will point out that i myself feel that a good scorer is probably worth more than 50gbp but that is an unsubstantiated figure and i guess it is undeclared so that makes it worth 60gbp,maybe ground owners on here would like to fess up exactly what they pay?.....i somehow doubt it!!  ny offers?

sounds like the smallest cost to the shoot from what i can tell!

 

[evoracer]

​

​i cannot beleive the consistant excuse that not being paid enough is a reason to not do the job correctly it is not acceptable anywhere else so why should it be here.

if you believe that what you are doing is worth more than you are getting for it then do something constructive about it example get everybody together and tell the ground owners you want better pay.

it is between you and the ground owner who accepts our money to provide a service and then pays you to help provide it,i can honestly not think of any other place where the employee of the business owner expects the customer to take any responsibility for the service provided.

they sell a product that has by definition to adhere to a set of rules and all i am hearing is it is to much trouble and its the shooters problem even thougfh he has paid good money for his entry.

"The question is, are shooter's were willing to pay an appropriate amount to ensure that each and every ref / scorer is properly trained and competent in their field." as for this comment..i will put it in block capitals...YOUR BEEF IS WITH THE GROUND OWNER/SHOOT OPERATOR! they set the fee

"you don't think so"...i regularly pay 40gbp to shoot which is upto 15 pounds more than i have seen other shoots advertised,a lot of leeway in that so again YOUR BEEF IS WITH THE GROUND OWNER/SHOOT OPERATOR!

i will point out that i myself feel that a good scorer is probably worth more than 50gbp but that is an unsubstantiated figure and i guess it is undeclared so that makes it worth 60gbp,maybe ground owners on here would like to fess up exactly what they pay?.....i somehow doubt it!!  ny offers?

sounds like the smallest cost to the shoot from what i can tell!

​Atleast someone gets it!!! I thought I was living in a parallel universe for a while!!

 

[wynno]

Schmokinn.  If you were to employ me on a professional basis my daily fees are in excess of £250 plus expenses. Ground owners would love to charge £ 50 to £75 per 100 clays to cover the cost of professional referees. But how many shooters would be prepared to pay that kind of money......Methinks not many..... 

 

[philmoss]

Nothing is paid to the CPSA per entry for a reg shoot & nothing is paid to FITASC now either, it was never £5.... 
​

 

[schmokinn]

​i have stated that i pay upto 40gbp already so that is pretty close to your base figure you chose,what we need is the scorers to do what they are paid for and there employer to enable them to do that with the correct training cost is again the proprietors issue.

​not going hang my **** out as to what i earn...but thats not the point is it?

the point is that you choose to do it for whatever reason and i am sure you are good at it....but that has nothing to do with the issue.

the person who is running a business and employing staff is responsible for there training,the shooters responsibility is to turn up,pay there money,shoot and then go home and think about how many he missed!