Seeing Lead - your thoughts

[chippy]

Ips, your examples of people writing about not seeing lead on sporting clays/game shooting are pre 3D clays (that don't just fly on a straight horizontal line) and 20-30yd bird pheasant shooting, where they don't need much lead!!! 

John Bidwell may have written about move-mount-shoot...but I've watched him, he didn't shoot move-mount-shoot when I was watching him!!! 

p.s. Bidwell can still shoot!!!

I can remember watching bidwell shooting a high crosser off a tower at lakenheath several years ago, I stopped to watch as I had never seen him shoot and wanted to see move Mount shoot in action. Well it went Move mount move move move move move shoot. I was highly disappointed just the same as everyone else. He hit them all though.

I guess its the classic case of " don't do as I do, do as i say"

 

[Will Hewland]

I can remember watching bidwell shooting a high crosser off a tower at lakenheath several years ago, I stopped to watch as I had never seen him shoot and wanted to see move Mount shoot in action. Well it went Move mount move move move move move shoot. I was highly disappointed just the same as everyone else. He hit them all though.

I guess its the classic case of " don't do as I do, do as i say"

Just to cut back in, slightly different topic, I've watched Bidwells video and GDs video. Neither of them do what they say they do. Hilarious. It seems they are just great instinctive shots, who then try and add a "method".

 

[Hamster]

Just to cut back in, slightly different topic, I've watched Bidwells video and GDs video. Neither of them do what they say they do. Hilarious. It seems they are just great instinctive shots, who then try and add a "method".

Shooting methods are a bit like guns it seems, they all work regardless of the name as long as the money is right. 

 

[balltrap]

Just to cut back in, slightly different topic, I've watched Bidwells video and GDs video. Neither of them do what they say they do. Hilarious. It seems they are just great instinctive shots, who then try and add a "method".




 

True, I am also a legend in my own living room but I cannot say there is a method in it :angel:

 

[ips]

been an interesting topic that's for sure.

 

[Gavin]

Just for laughs we walked back from a battue about 10yards a time. to as far as we could go a full 97 yards (range finder) and was very surprised at how consistently it could be broke as for lead it was something like a bus and and bit.......all 3 of us could break 5-6 out of ten and all of us seen a similar gap. I see lead on everything I shoot even when I come thru a bird I pull ahead to the gap I need. Even shooting trap I will see a little lead I can't comprehend any one shooting long crossing birds without seeing the lead

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[Salopian]

This is a subject that will always attract contoversy and comment .

Because we are all different !

Bidwell never did write MMS, he onl added his name to a good idea at the time.

Ips unwittingly answered his own question . ESP. Extra Sensory Perception .

If it looks right it usually is .

 

[ips]

Just for laughs we walked back from a battue about 10yards a time. to as far as we could go a full 97 yards (range finder) and was very surprised at how consistently it could be broke as for lead it was something like a bus and and bit.......all 3 of us could break 5-6 out of ten and all of us seen a similar gap. I see lead on everything I shoot even when I come thru a bird I pull ahead to the gap I need. Even shooting trap I will see a little lead I can't comprehend any one shooting long crossing birds without seeing the lead

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

you see I am the exact opposite I cant comprehend consciously seeing lead ?

just to clarify. I am not saying churchil method is better or that seeing lead is wrong I am only saying that some of us cant shoot that way which is probably why I am ok on 19th century game birds and 20th century sporting targets but struggle on floppy this and that 21st century sporting trick targets and possibly would struggle on challenging high pheasant.

james's reply made sense to me regarding the quotes and methods being made for birds and target presentation of the day.

 

[squimp]

Somebody mentioned tennis a few posts ago.

Go and find a book called 'The Inner Game of Tennis' or the golf equivalent by Timothy Gallway (spelling?). It is about using your subconscious mind to perform a task rather than letting your conscious mind screw it up.

Very interesting stuff and it does have applications in shooting. I recently bought a copy on ebay for £2. I gave my original one to my shooting instructor 15 years ago.

BTW I do see lead, so am not an advocate of the instinct only method.

 

[Westward]

Westward, The brain and eyes are wonderful things they learn and retain information so judging what lead you need comes with memories formed  of hitting lots of targets.  Some people can just know and literally aim at a spot to shoot their targets.  They already know the lead.  Maintained lead is probably the hardest of all methods to master.  We all learn at different speeds, someone better than me missed a target at Westonwood because he hadn't learned to insert the gun, he had no idea until shown.  We probably all fall back on our favourite methods but we should learn all of them because they all have their place and it takes time.  There is also no standard lead for a particular target people see very different lead but there is a general sense when something needs next to nothing or huge amounts.

I'm happy with any of those methods Sian, it all depends on the target of course. But I can't think of any AAA or AA - and I've seen many, many of them - who use gun speed on big long crossers or close fast crossers. On such targets, virtually all of them start in front and stay in front. Maybe a bit of swing through or pull away on some quartering, slow crossing or trappie type shots but only luck and the grace of your particular god will consistently get you a 60 yard screaming battue or a 150 ft driven midi with only gun speed.

 

[Sian]

I'm happy with any of those methods Sian, it all depends on the target of course. But I can't think of any AAA or AA - and I've seen many, many of them - who use gun speed on big long crossers or close fast crossers. On such targets, virtually all of them start in front and stay in front. Maybe a bit of swing through or pull away on some quartering, slow crossing or trappie type shots but only luck and the grace of your particular god will consistently get you a 60 yard screaming battue or a 150 ft driven midi with only gun speed.

Like I said by the time you are a true AA or AAA you have the memory bank, confidence in what you are doing and the consistency and the ability to use the best method for the clay being thrown.  The rest of us do our best with what we've got.

 

[SIMON-B]

On a slight aside those that see/measure lead between the clay and barrels like myself, have you ever been able to swap to see/measure lead at the clay. On many occasions I will see maybe 3 foot between the clay and barrel on a long crosser where my shooting friends will see a much greater distance, I can't see how you can judge/estimate without the muzzle as a reference. (this might explain my woeful skills).??

sent from ma fone wiv ma fingaz

 

[chippy]

On a slight aside those that see/measure lead between the clay and barrels like myself, have you ever been able to swap to see/measure lead at the clay. On many occasions I will see maybe 3 foot between the clay and barrel on a long crosser where my shooting friends will see a much greater distance, I can't see how you can judge/estimate without the muzzle as a reference. (this might explain my woeful skills).??

sent from ma fone wiv ma fingaz

Yes when I started shooting I closed one eye( didn't know any different) and saw lead at the barrel, but when I changed to both eyes my lead picture changed to the clay. 

 

[ips]

interesting article / letter in April edition of shooting gazzette, seems that I am not the only one who does not see lead or advocate that you do.