Semi auto gas question. Hatsan Escort cycling

[Alan Surry]

I’m fairly new to clay shooting.  My first gun is a  Franchi Alicione O/U that I’m getting on Ok with, but my shooting partner finds the recoil a bit harsh and is getting less keen on shooting.  I want to encourage her to keep coming with me, so I found myself buying a nearly new 24” Hatsan Escort semi auto for a bargain £200.  I know these guns have a bit of a “love em or hate em” reputation, so I bought it on the basis that if it’s not right, I’ll get most of my money back on a trade in, so bear with me.  I’m ex army, so I understand how gas operated weapons cycle and the need to keep them clean.  What I’m less sure about is what cartridges this gun will perform well with. From what I’m told, 70mm cartridges are a must, but I don’t want to waste time and more importantly, faff about with cycling problems when I want her to be getting the most of the gun to encourage her to keep shooting. The question is, does a 24” barrel affect the cycling any more than a longer barrel? I’m assuming that a longer barrel will provide more gas feeding back pressure on the piston before the load leaves the barrel (correct me if I’m wrong) Therefore, am I likely to need to stick to heavier loads to compensate for the shorter barrel?  The seller assured me it cycled 24g loads if kept clean, which it will be.  Any advice would be appreciated.  I can well afford £200, so even if it’s not the right gun, it’s not the end of the world and I’ve got a decent Italian gun, so I’d appreciate not being told it’s not good enough.  In my mind, anything that sells in large numbers can’t be all bad. I just want to make sure it works well for her and if possible with lighter loads without a lot of trial and error which may well have the opposite effect of encouraging her from shooting.  Thanks for listening. 

Apologies. Duplicate post. 

 

[timps]

The gas port is in the same place regardless of barrel length, once the gas reaches this port the breach opens so any excess pressure that a longer barrel may or may not give is vented to the atmosphere via the open breach therefore a 24” will not be any disadvantage.

Depending on model and age some Hatsan’s were available in either 3” or 3.1/2” chambers the older 3.1/2” chambers were set up for the heavier loads and could not reliably cycle the lower gas pressure in the lighter loads. The newer versions are set up for the lighter loads and vent any excess gas pressure of heavier loads by opening a spring loaded front valve so are said to be suitable for all pressures.

The 70 mm cartridges are only really needed if you are going to load 3 at once, one in the chamber 2 in the mag. When it cycles it can in some instances try and load 2 carts at once with the shorter shells. If you are shooting clays and loading only 2 carts, one in the chamber, one in the magazine there shouldn’t be any problem as it can only try an load the one cart.

Degreasing and cleaning the gun with light oiling is paramount as well as cleaning the gas ports, checking the seals are seated not damaged. This is the cause of most stoppages.

In regards to cartridges it is a lottery with autos, some guns seem to cycle any, some even of the same make and model struggle. I had a run of issues with a batch of Eley cartridges on my AL391 whether  it was the brass size/shape, thickness of case, they were a dirty burn or  some other anomaly I have no idea but the Beretta did not get on with them with random stoppages that didn’t happen with other carts so I just used them in my O/U instead.

 

[westley]

IF you are experiencing problems and take the gun back, try to find a used Beretta 303, or at least a 301/2. I have a 303 which I use for clays, on occasion. It cycles the 24 gram Cheddite trap or most 28 gram cartridges, without any problem. I have recently rebuilt a scrap 300. I totally stripped the gun, cleaned and de-carboned the entire thing, replaced the bolt and magazine springs, obtained and fitted the missing trigger group parts and replaced the cracked bolt lock (courtesy of a chap on another Forum). I shot on 3 occasions, prior to lockdown, with the gun, it too performed faultlessly using a range of different cartridges. Now that I have re-oiled the woodwork, during lockdown, it looks really good. I plan to keep it for pigeon shooting as my 30 years old 303 is still in mint condition. They are, in my opinion, the best auto Beretta ever made. Parts are still available and the gun is easy to clean and maintain. I have owned just about every Beretta auto model they made, suffice it to say all of the later guns have gone, just the 303 and now it's cupboard mate, the 300 remain. 

 

[Centrepin]

I have the Hatsan Escourt Supreme Max. Kept clean it cycles 24gram through to 66gram no problems. Most I've tried is 42gram and that's cos I was given them. I use it for pigeons/corvids not clays so always have 1 in chamber 2 in mag. Mine is 28" barrel.

The only stoppages I get are my own doing, it jams if I use less than 70mm cartridges or if you fire really fast. All these I tried, just so as to work out the stoppages. 

Because I bought 2000 x 65mm x 30gram I load a 65mm in chamber then 2 x 70mm in mag. No problems and slowly using up the 65s.

Recoil with any load is negligible in a Hatsan with gas.

If you can find a decent 21gram x 70mm, I'm told they will recycle but havn't tried as I have enough to use at present.

If I go down to 24gram i use Lyalvale as i find these, available, cheap and reliable.

Easy to strip and clean, just pay attention to the gas parts with a wire brush. I keep mine lightly oiled at all times and clean it after every outing.

I've seen people advise on firing them completely dry and never cleaning them but stick to what you learnt in the Army, you'll not go far wrong. 

 

[westley]

I have the Hatsan Escourt Supreme Max. Kept clean it cycles 24gram through to 66gram no problems. Most I've tried is 42gram and that's cos I was given them. I use it for pigeons/corvids not clays so always have 1 in chamber 2 in mag. Mine is 28" barrel.

The only stoppages I get are my own doing, it jams if I use less than 70mm cartridges or if you fire really fast. All these I tried, just so as to work out the stoppages. 

Because I bought 2000 x 65mm x 30gram I load a 65mm in chamber then 2 x 70mm in mag. No problems and slowly using up the 65s.

Recoil with any load is negligible in a Hatsan with gas.

If you can find a decent 21gram x 70mm, I'm told they will recycle but havn't tried as I have enough to use at present.

If I go down to 24gram i use Lyalvale as i find these, available, cheap and reliable.

Easy to strip and clean, just pay attention to the gas parts with a wire brush. I keep mine lightly oiled at all times and clean it after every outing.

I've seen people advise on firing them completely dry and never cleaning them but stick to what you learnt in the Army, you'll not go far wrong. 

I would have thought that putting in the 2  x 70mm cartridges first and the 65mm last would have been better. Then if the 65mm fails to cycle correctly, it's on an empty gun.  I used up some light load cartridges in that way, 28 gram in the chamber, 24 gram in the mag. That way if the 24 failed to cycle, it was on the last shot anyway.

 

[Centrepin]

I would have thought that putting in the 2  x 70mm cartridges first and the 65mm last would have been better. Then if the 65mm fails to cycle correctly, it's on an empty gun.  I used up some light load cartridges in that way, 28 gram in the chamber, 24 gram in the mag. That way if the 24 failed to cycle, it was on the last shot anyway.

It's not the gram but the length of the cartridge that's the problem. It ejects any length and any grammage perfectly as it grips the cartridge base before throwing it out. Regardless of where I put the 65mm cartridge it's not long enough to be picked up and laid flat before the working parts snap forward. I've tried it with 24gram x 70mm and it recycles fine. When it jams with 65mm the cartridge is always nose down and caught about half way with the breech block. The gun is chambered for 3 1/2" magnums which I think is the problem. If it was chambered for 3" then it might just recycle the smaller cartridges in length. 

When loading the mag, it takes 3 x 65mm comfortable and 1 chambered, but obviously I can't legally load that way and as they don't recycle it's a pointless exercise. When loading 70mm it takes 2 plus 1 chambered and still space in mag. Not enough to load a cartridge but more than I would expect to still allow movement in the spring.

I only use it as a hide gun on my perms.

 

[Alan Surry]

Thanks for all the replies, the advice is much appreciated.