Struggling with a crosser until I started gun down (?!)

[Dan525]

My whole approach has been to shoot gun up. I was struggling to consistently hit a crosser during some practice at the weekend. (For those who have been to Fauxdegla recently, it's stand 10, left to right crosser about 30/40 yards out).

I was hitting about 60% because I felt like I had too long to think and started becoming overly-aware of my gun. So I started gun down (kind of, gun just out of my shoulder), nailed around 20, didn't drop a single one. Felt a lot more instinctive but still enough time to calculate the lead.

I may make gun-down (or just out of my shoulder) part of my repertoire for the 'longer' clays (in terms of time it's visible). Is this why people opt for gun-down for certain presentations? I was under the impression gun-down was in preparation for game/driven days, but does anybody else find that it actually helps during some sporting? Also, aside from FITASC were the rules are explicit, how 'down' do you start the gun? Just out of the shoulder?

Thanks for any advice

 

[jwpzx9r]

There is a line to which the

name "FITASC line" is given most shooting vests have this line on them it is usually where the shoulder material is joined to the front of the vest or like this above

 

[Sian]

I often use gun down in sporting on many presentations even ones people would think are stupid like a low quartering bird but sometimes I just need to do it.  Definitely on battues and chondels gun down can work very well for me and of course the long crossers.  I mainly have it near to my fitasc line but sometimes it does go lower just me pondering the bird ..  Just out of the shoulder is a very popular one.

Also just from my perspective, gun down is nothing to do with birdie shooting for me, it is just a really handy tool to have when clay shooting.

 

[Dan525]

I often use gun down in sporting on many presentations even ones people would think are stupid like a low quartering bird but sometimes I just need to do it.  Definitely on battues and chondels gun down can work very well for me and of course the long crossers.  I mainly have it near to my fitasc line but sometimes it does go lower just me pondering the bird ..  Just out of the shoulder is a very popular one.

Also just from my perspective, gun down is nothing to do with birdie shooting for me, it is just a really handy tool to have when clay shooting.

Interesting Sian! Thanks very much for the reply! 

 

[Westward]

There are 4 hold positions of which 3 are used for clays. There are no restrictions for sporting so (#1) premounting the gun fully in the shoulder is allowed, although as you've discovered, it is a disadvantage on some presentations. Most trappies and some skeeters start fully premounted though. 

If you watch people at a registered sporting shoot it's obvious that fully premounted for all shots is rare, especially among the better shots and most hold at (#2) up but just out of the shoulder most of the time - sometimes called a "soft mount". Occasionally you'll see a sort mix of 1 & 2 where the gun is tight in the shoulder but the head is up off the stock.

Gun down (#3) usually means around or below the Fitasc line and many regular Fitasc competitors shoot every presentation that way.

 

[jonz]

Most trappies and some skeeters start fully premounted though. 

Clearly you have forgotten about ISU Skeet here ! 

 

[TheSherriff70]

Only been shooting less than 2 years, and I shoot gun up.

 I read the Move, Mount , Shoot book by John Bidwell, and just started to try it.......especially with distant crossers. It certainly works for me.

 I can’t believe just how much time you have to shoot, and just how much you can see.

For me, it just feels so much more natural.

Now I don’t want to shoot gun up anymore. 

Now I am practicing my moving mount, as opposed to a static one.

 I would very much like to have some lessons on move, mount, shoot, and am planning to go to Bidwells  ground this year.

 

[Westward]

Clearly you have forgotten about ISU Skeet here ! 

The clue is in the word "some".

 

[Dan525]

There are 4 hold positions of which 3 are used for clays. There are no restrictions for sporting so (#1) premounting the gun fully in the shoulder is allowed, although as you've discovered, it is a disadvantage on some presentations. Most trappies and some skeeters start fully premounted though. 

If you watch people at a registered sporting shoot it's obvious that fully premounted for all shots is rare, especially among the better shots and most hold at (#2) up but just out of the shoulder most of the time - sometimes called a "soft mount". Occasionally you'll see a sort mix of 1 & 2 where the gun is tight in the shoulder but the head is up off the stock.

Gun down (#3) usually means around or below the Fitasc line and many regular Fitasc competitors shoot every presentation that way.

Only been shooting less than 2 years, and I shoot gun up.

 I read the Move, Mount , Shoot book by John Bidwell, and just started to try it.......especially with distant crossers. It certainly works for me.

 I can’t believe just how much time you have to shoot, and just how much you can see.

For me, it just feels so much more natural.

Now I don’t want to shoot gun up anymore. 

Now I am practicing my moving mount, as opposed to a static one.

 I would very much like to have some lessons on move, mount, shoot, and am planning to go to Bidwells  ground this year.

Thanks for the replies!

Why specifically does it help you (and me!) to have less time with the gun mounted? I've only just discovered it's useful, but I'm not sure why. Not sure what's going on when I have 'too much time' with my eyes on the bird. Until the practice session I only ever thought that was a good thing.

 

[Will Hewland]

Thanks for the replies!

Why specifically does it help you (and me!) to have less time with the gun mounted? I've only just discovered it's useful, but I'm not sure why. Not sure what's going on when I have 'too much time' with my eyes on the bird. Until the practice session I only ever thought that was a good thing.

The movement of a shotgun is comprised of two basic ingredients I feel. Firstly it’s about the technical matter of moving the muzzle to the correct place (usually this means some form of position ahead of the clay). Let’s assume the shooter knows how much lead is needed. But secondly it’s about HOW you achieve that; which is vastly affected by the speed at which you move.

If you flash past the clay you will add lead without realising because by the time you get the trigger pulled you have moved on more than you have noted visually. Equally, if you are hesitant you will slow or stop the gun and not get enough forward allowance (lead) established. It is this movement thing that is so affected by gun up or gun down. In some cases, where you are really fully gun up with your head firmly on the stock, you may not see the clay until the last moment and then overreact. Or, on a long slow target you might track the clay for ages, which tends to make you slow with a tendancy to stop. Some people track a clay slowly then do a horrible flick at the last minute to try and overcome stopping, which is really unhelpful and random.. There are various ways of going wrong..

So, in summary, mounting the gun just in time to track, pull away and shoot is a tempo thing. It’s about finding enough time to move smoothly, but equally you are forced to get on with the job without hesitating. It is finding this perfect balance that will push a shooter forward in their consistency and scores. 

 

[jonz]

The clue is in the word "some".

After 40 years of shooting still yet to see “some” ISU Skeet shooters gun up!

 

[Sian]

After 40 years of shooting still yet to see “some” ISU Skeet shooters gun up!

I presume he was referring to English Skeet- they were the “some”.

 

[Dan525]

The movement of a shotgun is comprised of two basic ingredients I feel. Firstly it’s about the technical matter of moving the muzzle to the correct place (usually this means some form of position ahead of the clay). Let’s assume the shooter knows how much lead is needed. But secondly it’s about HOW you achieve that; which is vastly affected by the speed at which you move.

If you flash past the clay you will add lead without realising because by the time you get the trigger pulled you have moved on more than you have noted visually. Equally, if you are hesitant you will slow or stop the gun and not get enough forward allowance (lead) established. It is this movement thing that is so affected by gun up or gun down. In some cases, where you are really fully gun up with your head firmly on the stock, you may not see the clay until the last moment and then overreact. Or, on a long slow target you might track the clay for ages, which tends to make you slow with a tendancy to stop. Some people track a clay slowly then do a horrible flick at the last minute to try and overcome stopping, which is really unhelpful and random.. There are various ways of going wrong..

So, in summary, mounting the gun just in time to track, pull away and shoot is a tempo thing. It’s about finding enough time to move smoothly, but equally you are forced to get on with the job without hesitating. It is finding this perfect balance that will push a shooter forward in their consistency and scores. 

Superb reply Will! Thank you very much for this insight mate.

I won't name and shame, but when I've attempted to get into the technical details of all of this on other shooting forums I'm normally told "forget about it, just shoot", so it's nice to be able to get an experienced shooter's opinion like this.

I'd agree with what you said. I was struggling to work out how being over-conscious of the target by having focus on it with the gun mounted too long could cause me to miss, but you're right I must have been slower on it then stopping the gun.

Thanks again

 

[Westward]

After 40 years of shooting still yet to see “some” ISU Skeet shooters gun up!

When I was at school the word "some" meant "some". I'm struggling to understand why that's a difficult concept.

But to clarify, if I may: "Some" people don't shoot ISU skeet.

 

[jonz]

When I was at school the word "some" meant "some". I'm struggling to understand why that's a difficult concept.

But to clarify, if I may: "Some" people don't shoot ISU skeet.

So some people don’t shoot ISU Skeet, I’ll agree with you on that but for those that do, none not some shoot it gun up It’s not hard to admit you forgot that in your original comment is it?

 

[Hamster]

Lets face it the semantics here are basically because ISU Skeet is soooooo rare/niche nowadays that it's pretty much irrelevant. 

 

[MartynB]

He didn’t say they did , he didn’t mention the pre-fix ISU at all . He simply said some skeet shooters start fully mounted . So that is factually correct . 

 

[jonz]

He didn’t say they did , he didn’t mention the pre-fix ISU at all . He simply said some skeet shooters start fully mounted . So that is factually correct . 

To be factually correct it should be “some English Skeet shooters start fully mounted”

 

[MartynB]

You know very well that everyone understood it . No one actually cares enough to be arsed if he did not explicitly mention  a sport that is of zero interest to the majority of recreational shooters !  

Still I will stand corrected . In my defence ,  it is 47 years since I passed my English Language O level . I shall immediately book myself into the local adult learning centre , and perhaps undertake a course in  remedial English nuance and comprehension .