Think your Sunday is going badly? Look at my barrel..

[Freddypip]

It would be helpful to see the photographs.

The report’s conclusions would tie in with the initial comments on this thread – that pressure has built up behind the choke causing the barrel failure. Teague are not concerned with why the failure occurred in this case, just showing it was not a fault with their product as supplied. I agree with Colin that you should be told the dimensions of the assembly and know how much metal was milled out etc. I think, as part of their investigation, they should also have tested the barrel metal to confirm it was to spec.

There are a few points that occur to me,

Have they measured the choke and recess to confirm they are an exact match – I assume all of the other chokes you have are the same length. Luke has raised the same point and it should have been covered off in the report.

Do you have a copy of the reproof certificate – I would want to have that. I have found the following - http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/RULESOFP.PDF but I’m still struggling to work out if the proofing is done with the chokes in.

Get the barrel and choke posted back to you.

Finally, though this is personal comment, I would not give them repeat business if you have not found a cause solution. Putting aside the issues with whether reducing the metal in a barrel is OK, if you don’t know how to avoid it happening again, it probably will.

P.S. I think we would all accept that multi choke guns have more weight up front suggesting more metal and therefore greater strength without the choke.

P.P.S. It is worth checking the thickness & bore of a non-damaged choke at the breach and barrel end just to check the construction is correct. Again Teague should have done this with the damaged choke.

Ant. Sorry to check this but did you manage to remove the choke from the barrel before posting to Teague ?. If so did you photograph it ?. I had assumed (or read) that it was stuck in.

 

[jwpzx9r]

poor outcome for the gun owner , nothing conclusive  just ifs and buts  ,   poor pr  for teagues  !!     consider the xs pro    

It is a standard deflection of blame because it is difficult and costly for the owner to prove otherwise. All Teague have actually done is protect themselves by being proactive with the report.

As an aside - what are peoples views on Teague alternatives? Open to suggestions moving forward.

Thanks all.

Buy a gun that was designed by the maker to be a movable choke gun and stick with the chokes they supply it could not be more simple. I have no doubt there will be cases of these types of guns going wrong too... but much more likely to be down to the user. The only damaged guns with movable chokes that I have actually seen have been ones that have been cut by engineering companies and others that had non standard chokes fitted.

 

[antse7en]

All images as promised: 

Again I simply cannot believe the filth on that choke - something is 100% not right there. That is impossible after 1.5 stands from clean and completely unheard of throughout my ownership. Hmm.

Edit - I've just compared even the exposed knurled part of the choke with the video and images I took just before shipping it off. They're filthy in comparison.

 

[tiptop]

Pretty much an as expected out come really. Teague will not admit liability, and you say there was no damage and the choke was seated correctly.

The thing is now you are looking to go down the insurance route. If the gun was/is insured why not go down that route from the start? 

 

[antse7en]

Pretty much an as expected out come really. Teague will not admit liability, and you say there was no damage and the choke was seated correctly.

The thing is now you are looking to go down the insurance route. If the gun was/is insured why not go down that route from the start? 

Yes agreed. 

To answer your question I felt it best to investigate the route cause and possibly resolution dependent upon any agreed liability prior to submitting a claim on my insurance. Goes without saying that with any claim comes a likely hike in premium, not to mention a % gamble given the fairly subjective nature of insurance coverage in the first place. 

Thankfully I hold insurance with Gunguard (underwritten by Hiscox) who should be fairly straightforward to deal with - fingers crossed. 

 

[ColinD]

Well I clean my chokes after every shoot, and mine have never got that dirty, and if as you say it was only used twice, it seems to be letting a lot of crap past the seat of the choke in the first place.

Edit: and this isn't even the faulty barrel

 

[antse7en]

Well I clean my chokes after every shoot, and mine have never got that dirty, and if as you say it was only used twice, it seems to be letting a lot of crap past the seat of the choke in the first place.

Yes exactly. Interesting point I hadn't considered that - that wasn't my assumption on why it was so dirty in the pictures.

 

[tiptop]

Well I clean my chokes after every shoot, and mine have never got that dirty, and if as you say it was only used twice, it seems to be letting a lot of crap past the seat of the choke in the first place.

Looks like typical Miroku rust.

 

[ColinD]

Well mine are Brownings

Edit, But one does have the DS chokes, the other Midas and still not like that

 

[jwpzx9r]

It's not ideal.

I do not want to be perceived as bad mouthing Teague precision - there's just no value in that. 

What I will add however is my view of some of the additional comments in the report, namely: 

• A prelude in the doc referencing internal packaging of the gun (it was in an aluminium deep padded case) as if to infer lack of care. To clarify it wasn't individually wrapped at a component level.
  
• Call out stating upon unpacking "both sight beads missing". This is because I removed them and generally shoot without.. unsure why that would be relevant other than some form of inference to care
  
• Reference to a scratch probably 1/2 the size of a penny piece on the underside of the barrel, approx half way down - again unsure how relevant other than developing a narrative
  
• A very suspect image of the removed undamaged choke literally COVERED in black residue - with images displaying the 'removal of undamaged choke" I've no idea how this level of dirt could even be possible given a) it went in the night before and had very few rounds through it, b) was removed at the time of incident to check for any damage. Something doesn't sit right in this respect. No choke has ever been this dirty in the lifetime of my shooting.
  
• The selective commentary placed against each remark bullet point is very one sided
  

This entire narrative builds a fairly comprehensive defence. Again to reiterate this is an objective view, I do not want to be seen to point fingers unjustly. 

As an aside - what are peoples views on Teague alternatives? Open to suggestions moving forward.

Thanks all.

The picture they are trying to paint is that of a badly cared for gun... that simple as it fits their narrative. I dare say the insurance loss adjuster will want to have a look as well. Not going to say he is your friend but if it can save them money he may pursue Teague's if of course he thinks there are grounds but again who prepared this report and what is their expertise and position in respect of impartiality ?

Well mine are Brownings

Edit, But one does have the DS chokes, the other Midas and still not like that

The thing is Browning chokes are threaded at the other end when compared to these Teague chokes . Not only that but if you compare the threading on the Browning Midas choke you will see two sets of threads... I suspect it is a safeguard to avoid what has happened here.

Any way the OP knows to steer clear of Teague now.

 

[AW13]

This entire thread has made me really concerned over my after market Teague chokes. Too many what-if's and the potential issues as described above. Not going to risk a £3k gun just in case a gas leak occurs past a choke and blows the barrel! 

I have replaced them with the OEM chokes and will not use them again. 

Hope the OP has a satisfactory conclusion to his misfortune

 

[jwpzx9r]

This entire thread has made me really concerned over my after market Teague chokes. Too many what-if's and the potential issues as described above. Not going to risk a £3k gun just in case a gas leak occurs past a choke and blows the barrel! 

I have replaced them with the OEM chokes and will not use them again. 

Hope the OP has a satisfactory conclusion to his misfortune

I have to say this is the best option for anybody who has a gun that has movable chokes. Think about it. They made the gun and their design is what the tooling is set up to reproduce.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

Again I simply cannot believe the filth on that choke - something is 100% not right there. That is impossible after 1.5 stands from clean and completely unheard of throughout my ownership. Hmm.

Not impossible, but if this is the result of a few shells fired, it looks like the gases and dirt pass from the barrel to behind the chokewall. If that's the case, the chokes aren't properly sealing, possibly due to improper fit (quite possibly being too short). 

 

[jwpzx9r]

I do not want to be perceived as bad mouthing Teague precision - there's just no value in that. 

The really funny thing is that just because something has precision or is precise... it does not automatically follow that is is necessarily accurate. It is usually associated with reproducablity which could in itself be inaccurate! 

 

[ColinD]

This entire thread has made me really concerned over my after market Teague chokes. Too many what-if's and the potential issues as described above. Not going to risk a £3k gun just in case a gas leak occurs past a choke and blows the barrel! 

I have replaced them with the OEM chokes and will not use them again. 

Hope the OP has a satisfactory conclusion to his misfortune

And how well are the OEM chokes made, as a lot of shotgun makers use other peoples chokes, Browning with Briley chokes for instance.

Teague supply others too

But this shotgun was altered from fixed choke to multi choke

 

[Luke_(NL)]

View attachment 8416

Could be distortion in the image or optical illusion, but does the inner end of the choke look like it flares outwards? 

 

[jwpzx9r]

And how well are the OEM chokes made, as a lot of shotgun makers use other peoples chokes, Browning with Briley chokes for instance.

Teague supply others too

But this shotgun was altered from fixed choke to multi choke

 I agree but when it comes to the actual barrels of the gun the manufacturer has designed them to be with a movable choke whereas this gun was as you say fixed choke and then cut to take movable chokes... there is quite a difference in my opinion.

 

[AW13]

And how well are the OEM chokes made, as a lot of shotgun makers use other peoples chokes, Browning with Briley chokes for instance.

Teague supply others too

But this shotgun was altered from fixed choke to multi choke

Fair point.

I am now just using the chokes supplied by the manufacturer with the gun when bought so all parts of the gun and chokes should be guaranteed.......... I hope!

 

[Lloyd]

Hmm... this feels a touch short sighted of Teague management in my opinion. 
Teague have a good reputation in which their defensive response has folks questioning their quality and customer service. 
It seems someone has forgotten we are living in 2020, the age of the internet and social media, not 1820 and the age of the horse and carriage and socialites. Bad news travels fast and far in these days.

In my mind it would have been prudent for Teague to take ownership of this. Not necessarily responsibility, but ownership. This looks like it’s been passed over to someone detached from the ideas of all the constituent facets of running a successful business and have narrowly focused on a legal defence based on a counteroffensive approach. Quite possibly the worst possible response for both the customer ( @antse7en ) and their broader existing and future customer base.

Lets for the sake of argument just say that poor old Ant had overlooked something and the result is the very sad tale of a blown own barrel. Not withstanding it could have been worse!

An approach something along the lines of an objective look at the choke/barrel interface and the coke and barrel themselves. Perhaps a metallurgical analysis of both barrel and choke? A chemical analysis of the residue from the interface? An independent geometric and dimensional study of the choke and barrels, presented in a table against the design standard and tolerances.

Lets say for the sake of argument, this analysis put Ant firmly at the point of blame? Dear customer, we would like to share with you the results of our investigation and independent technical analysis. 
unfortunately we have to conclude  that the root cause of this issue is ......

we appreciate of course the distress this is undoubtedly causing you and we would sincerely like to make an offer of help. Unfortunately we are not able to fully bear the brunt of the cost of the repairs/replacement, but as a guest urge of goodwill we would like to offer you....

Or let’s assume Teague or independent analysts found something wrong with the barrels...

dear mr customer, we must regretfully inform you your barrels were made of compressed sawdust and thus as borne out in the metallurgical report, have therefore failed at working pressure bla bla bla. We would of course be pleased to assist you further should you require it as you continue to redress the unfortunate situation.

Or Teague found out it was a material problem with the choke...

Dr Mr Customer. Our independent analysis has shown that the metallurgical properties of the material used to manufacture your choke has not met our usual stringent standards. 
we have traced this material back the original mill through our audit and certification process and we will be giving the mill a royally good shafting! We are as no doubt you will be also, mightily pi$$ed off about this.

In the meantime, please allow us to put things right. We hope this unfortunate occurrence will not prejudice your future and valued customer (and hopefully won’t slag us off on Internet forums, causing a backlash that will cost us more custom than the money we will save by picking holes in how many beads you’ve got on your gun)

Think someone at Teague needs to go see Ed Lyons.  

As a Teague user... do I doubt their materials and processes? No. I accept things can and do go wrong. However... do I want to spend more money with Teague now?  Perhaps not

 

[Freddypip]

I do think the chokes involved and barrel(s) etc need measuring to ensure they are as expected. Teague should have done this and included the information (ideally with photographs) in their report. If the chokes are short by a small amount or the barrel milled too far that would explain a lot. A set of cheap calipers and thin metal rule should do the trick.

Also, looking at the photographs, the threads start immediately at the barrel end. there are no matching threads on the choke. Is there enough threat to ensure the chokes do seat properly ??