Think your Sunday is going badly? Look at my barrel..

[ColinD]

For those of you worried about using alternative chokes to OE supplied or about the strength and integrity of the installation of thinwall chokes by Teague , Briley , or any other manufacturer /supplier  i.e . Muller , Comp n Choke etc .,  may be give this some thought please .

Probably the highest pressures that a barrel is subjected to occurs approximately 9" forward of the breech face , then pressure will then dissipate as it travels towards the muzzle (choke area) UNLESS OF COURSE IT MEETS AN OBSTRUCTION .

My  Boss has barrel wall thicknesses of 0.025" inch and has come to no harm in 120 years of use. 

Is it a fixed or multi choke

 

[jwpzx9r]

Question Ant . In whose opinion are those the likely causes ? That is who is the independent expert or organisation  whose competence  is in these matters . The interesting thing to me is that if I’d have been at work looking at a catastrophic failure of plant and equipment the first call would have been to check the failed components against manufacturing specification  . There seems to be no objective assessment just subjective theorisation. 

I’d also be interested in the proof side of things . I have 7 chokes with my conversion and I’ve a few I’ve never used  ? Does the full set of chokes accompany the gun to the proof house ?  I don’t recall seeing a proof mark on my chokes.  Does every choke get tested in BOTH barrels ? 

Don’t beat yourself up , you know you’ve done everything right .  Although I’ve loads of Teagues for my converted 12 and 20 Mirokus , the only ones I ever find myself using are 3/8 and 5/8 so perhaps that’s the way to go with a fixed choke ? 
 

This is a good thread I like a bit of debate

Martyn like yourself I would like to know who wrote that report. Further more as I said in an earlier post what is the significance of the removal of the undamaged choke it is not in question has not failed and cannot add anything at all to the report. There is not one thing in that report that could not been written by anybody who has made comment on this site.  A cynic might say that choke has been removed to cast doubt as to whether or not this gun has been properly looked after. Fortunately the OP had the good sense to document the entire pre inspection by video and photographs.

 

[tiptop]

I cannot watch your video I am afraid just have to take your word

Same as, don't seem to be able to watch video.

Anyway, hope you end up with an outcome that is acceptable.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Agree with all of that bud. The most unusual thing to me however is the fact the damaged choke hasn't been removed and referenced in the report - the first thing I would have expected.

I do not agree. I think the choke has not been removed because Firstly the gun does not belong to Teague and unless you gave them permission the investigators would not do that the would not because removing it could be prejudicial . Secondly and most importantly who wrote the report? Was is a member of staff at Teague or the expert examiner? For an expert to have written that that is hard to believe it is all ahhs and umms not and actually hard bit of fact there at all.

 

[tiptop]

Far to many unanswered questions for me here.

1. What is the warranty/guarantee from Teague for the work?

2. Proof testing certificate. A friend of mine has just had his P gun Teagued and has a proofing cert and the barrels stamped for steel shot.

3. Who wrote the report?

Questions that have been asked with no answers forth coming.

 

[Freddypip]

Ant.

Just to ensure I understand - Teague have NOT removed the damaged choke. There are no photographs of it out of the barrel etc ?. If they haven't done this they can't have measured the choke or barrels to confirm compliance to spec. Without measurements the report is simply a statement of the likely set of facts (which I think we know is pressure behind the choke pushing the barrel up) without questioning any manufacturing issues. The report assumes the job was good and then lists the operator errors !!!.

Tiptop.

Have the barrels on that Peeerazzi been stamped for steel up to full choke ?. I don't think there's a chrome lining on a P gun to protect from steel on steel contact. Teague chokes on a P gun is like marrying Nicole Kidman and then suggesting shes too tall.

All.

Good point re the choke. Is the gun proofed with a choke in - if so it has to be proofed once with each choke - or is it proofed without them. I would want that proofing certificate.

 

[antse7en]

Far to many unanswered questions for me here.

1. What is the warranty/guarantee from Teague for the work?

2. Proof testing certificate. A friend of mine has just had his P gun Teagued and has a proofing cert and the barrels stamped for steel shot.

3. Who wrote the report?

Questions that have been asked with no answers forth coming.

I’ll ask these questions tomorrow

Ant.

Just to ensure I understand - Teague have NOT removed the damaged choke. There are no photographs of it out of the barrel etc ?. If they haven't done this they can't have measured the choke or barrels to confirm compliance to spec. Without measurements the report is simply a statement of the likely set of facts (which I think we know is pressure behind the choke pushing the barrel up) without questioning any manufacturing issues. The report assumes the job was good and then lists the operator errors !!!.

Tiptop.

Have the barrels on that Peeerazzi been stamped for steel up to full choke ?. I don't think there's a chrome lining on a P gun to protect from steel on steel contact. Teague chokes on a P gun is like marrying Nicole Kidman and then suggesting shes too tall.

All.

Good point re the choke. Is the gun proofed with a choke in - if so it has to be proofed once with each choke - or is it proofed without them. I would want that proofing certificate.

Yes first paragraph spot on Freddy.

For those who were unable to view video above - 

 

[Paul120]

The pictures of the removed dirty choke would imply that the issue was caused by maintenance. 

If the choke was in the same condition as the ones in the choke case the night before  the failureI Think it might be worth 150 notes or so to get a solicitor to ask some questions?

Another route would be to send it to the proof house for assessment. I believe they have a wealth of knowledge of Barrel failures. 

 

[antse7en]

The pictures of the removed dirty choke would imply that the issue was caused by maintenance. 

If the choke was in the same condition as the ones in the choke case the night before  the failureI Think it might be worth 150 notes or so to get a solicitor to ask some questions?

Another route would be to send it to the proof house for assessment. I believe they have a wealth of knowledge of Barrel failures. 

Yes you may be right. I can state with complete and utter honesty the gun was cleaned the night before, and a gleaming pair of chokes added at the same time. Hence my confusion at the state of it above. Again no choke of mine has looked like that, even after 300+ through it over 2 days. 

 

[tiptop]

Tiptop.

Have the barrels on that Peeerazzi been stamped for steel up to full choke ?. I don't think there's a chrome lining on a P gun to protect from steel on steel contact. Teague chokes on a P gun is like marrying Nicole Kidman and then suggesting shes too tall.

All.

Good point re the choke. Is the gun proofed with a choke in - if so it has to be proofed once with each choke - or is it proofed without them. I would want that proofing certificate.

I would imagine that the barrels with the chokes up to 1/2 are tested for steel, and marked up accordingly. Most of the advice for steel is no more than 1/2 choke. Steel proofing is done at a much higher pressure than just for lead. You have to request the proofing for steel or it will only be done for lead. I don't think steel on steel comes into it, as far as I'm aware steel cartridges are still plas wad, and nobody makes fibre steel. As for chokes in the gun for proofing I would imagine so. 

The pictures of the removed dirty choke would imply that the issue was caused by maintenance. 

If the choke was in the same condition as the ones in the choke case the night before  the failureI Think it might be worth 150 notes or so to get a solicitor to ask some questions?

Another route would be to send it to the proof house for assessment. I believe they have a wealth of knowledge of Barrel failures. 

That's going to be an expensive route. Far cheaper to just buy another gun.

 

[ColinD]

Ant

Did you have any correspondence in with the letter from Teague, or for that matter any feedback from them.

Or is it in Teagues mind that the letter they sent to you is final and that's it, have they asked permission from you to remove the faulty choke for inspection. Seems the only thing that the report implies it's poor maintenace on your behalf, how do they know it's not a material failure without inspection.

Do they know you have video showing what you have shown us

 

[jwpzx9r]

I would imagine that the barrels with the chokes up to 1/2 are tested for steel, and marked up accordingly. Most of the advice for steel is no more than 1/2 choke. Steel proofing is done at a much higher pressure than just for lead. You have to request the proofing for steel or it will only be done for lead. I don't think steel on steel comes into it, as fare as I'm aware steel cartridges are still plas wad, and nobody makes fibre steel. As for chokes in the gun for proofing I would imagine so. 

That's going to be an expensive route. Far cheaper to just buy another gun.

This is the very point Teague like all companies are trying to protect their own image. The have had an independent expert examine the gun and give a written report it is the first thing any company would do in the same situation.  This gives the complainant a feeling of fairness and that all is above board.

What I as someone on the sidelines would like to know is this. Is the report given to the OP the report given to Teague or one written by Teague on the back of it? It is just not worth the candle trying to take on a company as they have more financial clout than an individual . I think there a number of inconsistencies though and the report is the main one. I have had a similar experience in the past where a expert metallurgical  examiner was commissioned to test a failed product... there was no hiding who wrote the report it came on the company headed note paper? As would any report of this nature  the OP should not have to ask who made that report.

If I was the OP at this point I would make a claim on my gun insurance. The loss adjuster is there to, in many ways, make good a loss but if he can help it not at the expense of his employers. He will want to know all the details of the event.

 

[antse7en]

Ant

Did you have any correspondence in with the letter from Teague, or for that matter any feedback from them.

Or is it in Teagues mind that the letter they sent to you is final and that's it, have they asked permission from you to remove the faulty choke for inspection. Seems the only thing that the report implies it's poor maintenace on your behalf, how do they know it's not a material failure without inspection.

Do they know you have video showing what you have shown us

Actually yes, this is what I had by email along with the attachment:

Dear Anthony,Sorry to have received your damaged barrels with our multi choke system fitted. Please find attached our report and findings of what may have caused or contributed to the damage to your barrels. There will be a hard copy of the report following in the post.If you have any questions or queries please do not hesitate to contact us.We value each and every one of our customers and we are happy to assist with repair work to your damage barrels.

 

[ColinD]

Not sure how they would assist a repair like that, unless you get new barrels and they'll re teague them at a reduced cost to you

 

[JDL]

Rust/muck on choke could be the result of a moist environment during transport or storage before the choke was removed. Doesn’t need much time.

Would expect to see more dirt in the threads in the barrel, but might be difficult to see in the picture. Will give them the benefit of the doubt on this part.

Have seen quite some reports on failed parts, but without any measurements this doesn’t look like a serious attempt to find the root cause, and wouldn’t pass the smell test for me..

Quite common for manufacturers to react this way, but have seen many of them having to change their statements after asking them questions and providing facts. You should ask yourself if you’re willing to invest the time and energy to try to get a different result.

Thank you for sharing your story, no Teague conversion for me anytime soon.

 

[Lloyd]

Actually yes, this is what I had by email along with the attachment:

Dear Anthony,Sorry to have received your damaged barrels with our multi choke system fitted. Please find attached our report and findings of what may have caused or contributed to the damage to your barrels. There will be a hard copy of the report following in the post.If you have any questions or queries please do not hesitate to contact us.We value each and every one of our customers and we are happy to assist with repair work to your damage barrels.

Well, the cover letter does at least attempt some empathy, but the report is in juxtaposition. 
Could of course be two authors, but one should have overall direction of the tone and should air in my opinion on the side of preserving good customer relations.

Cost to the manufacturer have been eluded to, but how much will lost custom tally up to? The extra PR, exhibition attendance and advertising spend required to offset the negatives?

Theses a bigger picture at stake than simply protecting ones own hide.

All in all a poor showing as far as I’m concerned. I won’t be buying anymore Teague chokes, despite that I’ve not lost confidence in their manufacturing or materials. I’ve lost confidence in their customer service. 

Actually yes, this is what I had by email along with the attachment:

Dear Anthony,Sorry to have received your damaged barrels with our multi choke system fitted. Please find attached our report and findings of what may have caused or contributed to the damage to your barrels. There will be a hard copy of the report following in the post.If you have any questions or queries please do not hesitate to contact us.We value each and every one of our customers and we are happy to assist with repair work to your damage barrels.

Well, the cover letter does at least attempt some empathy, but the report is in juxtaposition. 
Could of course be two authors, but one should have overall direction of the tone and should air in my opinion on the side of preserving good customer relations.

Cost to the manufacturer have been eluded to, but how much will lost custom tally up to? The extra PR, exhibition attendance and advertising spend required to offset the negatives?

Theses a bigger picture at stake than simply protecting ones own hide.

All in all a poor showing as far as I’m concerned. I won’t be buying anymore Teague chokes, despite that I’ve not lost confidence in their manufacturing or materials. I’ve lost confidence in their customer service. 

 

[El Spavo]

P.S. I think we would all accept that multi choke guns have more weight up front suggesting more metal and therefore greater strength without the choke.

Funny you say that, I've noticed my B525 barrels flare out slightly at the end the exact length of the chokes where to me they've obviously been designed to remain the same thickness the whole length but inside, with the inclusion of the factory chokes, it's a nice, smooth, consistant diameter bore.

Well I clean my chokes after every shoot, and mine have never got that dirty, and if as you say it was only used twice, it seems to be letting a lot of crap past the seat of the choke in the first place.

Edit: and this isn't even the faulty barrel

I clean my gun/chokes probably about every 5th time or so and I've never seen anything like that amount of build up on mine, not even close.

 

[Lloyd]

It is just not worth the candle trying to take on a company as they have more financial clout than an individual .

I think there a number of inconsistencies though and the report is the main one. 

You make a lot of sense, but I don’t believe it’s always true that you cannot take on a company because they have greater resources. There are caveats I believe. 

One springs to mind is that a company I once worked for had a turnover of about £2M. Not an awful lot, but more income than most households. Their expenditure however was also £2M. The CEO/Owner took home less pay than I did!

At the opposite end of the scale, my sister was sent an electric bill for just a little over £125,000.

A bit excessive even for winter. On taking to various representatives throughout the company, until I reached board level to find the level of authority required to actually have the autonomy to act upon what they were being told and not fearfully continuing to say “computer says no. 

I simply pointed out some basic mathematics of building regulations maximum allowable load on household electrical cables in Amps, multiplied by voltage to equal wattage. The resultant figure had to mean that in the billable quarter, my sisters house would have to run so much load her home would have spontaneously combust with the heat, or she must be in possession of an aluminum smelting plant in her back yard. The logic and indisputable mathematics of the service providers own  figures proved this. To be fair, that was a relatively simple one. Lloyds Bank was a bit more of a challenge but pointing out they had broken 11 communication laws and could be subject to an £80,000 fine and 2yr prison sentence finally caught the attention of senior management and the matter was resolved instantly. I’m no lawyer by any means, but It’s surprising what you can learn in a couple of hours with a laptop and an internet connection.

Thus, I would ask, is there an appetite for this? If the gun is insured, then as rightly pointed out, this really becomes someone else’s problem, not withstanding Ant’s concerns about future insurance premiums 

 

[El Spavo]

McLibel. Nuff said.

 

[Garwood]

I`ll stick with OM multichoke guns myself.

I think this has been a poor show on Teagues behalf though.

For those of you worried about using alternative chokes to OE supplied or about the strength and integrity of the installation of thinwall chokes by Teague , Briley , or any other manufacturer /supplier  i.e . Muller , Comp n Choke etc .,  may be give this some thought please .

Probably the highest pressures that a barrel is subjected to occurs approximately 9" forward of the breech face , then pressure will then dissipate as it travels towards the muzzle (choke area) UNLESS OF COURSE IT MEETS AN OBSTRUCTION .

My  Boss has barrel wall thicknesses of 0.025" inch and has come to no harm in 120 years of use. 

Agree about your wall thickness but your Boss doesn`t have what is basically an unadhered lap joint where it is 25 thou !!!! 

A simple set of feeler guages will illustrate what we`re talking about with these conversion jobs to anyone with an enquiring mind...there isn`t a margin for much error by any cause.