Trigger Freeze

[ips]

I actually watched a guy two weeks back have a classic case of what we have described Ian. He called the target it got away from him while he stared incredulously at it and then he tried to shoot it, it was funny to anybody watching because he nearly fell over in his effort to pull the trigger as he over balanced without the recoil to steady him. He did actually get both barrels off eventaully... the target was just entering the next Department by that time

John

did he use a very high gun hold i wonder ? High hold is a problem with regards to target acquisition unless you are able to adopt a very wide and deep field of vision otherwise target acquisition is restricted by barrels and this is when target is not seen when the brain expects to see it hence my no 1 theory. High hold must also be used with a wait until it pops up technique, move to early and your in deep doo dah

 

[Madmillie]

I too suffer from the dreaded yips and have tried several things to overcome it. First, try not to have too tight a grip on the stocks neck when soft mounting on going away shots and second( and by far the most successful) is to wear a glove on the trigger hand. I shoot a P gun with sublime trigger pull weights and sometimes think that this adds to the problem.

MM

 

[HDAV]

A shooter friend of mine contends that too light trigger pulls are a common cause of flinching.  I agree completely.  I normally shoot a release/pull setup but I can shoot 6lb+ pull triggers without any problem.

There is also the fear of failing that hangs up some people.

Good luck on any of it

And the subconscious fear of recoil............ try 21g shells....

 

[Angelfire]

I got the dreaded trigger freeze, to the extent I went onto a release trigger. Problem solved.

Phil*

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

Suffer regular bouts and it can drive you crazy shot a 93/100 sporting a few weeks back and had 3 instances of trigger freeze on easy birds so potentially a 96 gone begging and its always the second barrel never ever the first :fie:   

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Just a reminder that this is worth what you're paying for it

My presumption too is that you're not just sloppy

I think shooting is too complex an activity to reduce to single functions.  Any one thing affects one or more others.  AFAIC if I'm attending to the basics in a proper fashion, then the pre-call prep is the central element that can botch lotsa others.  It is too easy to call for the target when you're maybe still thinking about being ready, or still maybe about half ready, or you're all ready except that that the eyes are fixed on the top of the house, but you're NOT really ready and you call anyway.  One person I shoot with calls this shooting by the clock.  It takes say X millisec to ready and when that time has passed then you call and shoot.  You have to run the pre-call by the essential events, not the "standard" time it takes to do them.  Then the sub-con can run the show because there is nothing else that the con needs to attend to.

JMO of course

you're on your own

Charlie

 

[Nimbusgb]

Suffer regular bouts and it can drive you crazy shot a 93/100 sporting a few weeks back and had 3 instances of trigger freeze on easy birds so potentially a 96 gone begging and its always the second barrel never ever the first :fie:

Had a couple of those but in my case it's not releasing the trigger enough. Squeeze off barrel one and hold the trigger while I try to analyse what happened to it, if it was a break etc. in the meantime the mechanism has missed switching to barrel two and when i do release and pull nothing happens.

 

[Bryn12]

I think there may be number of reasons from recoil, the subconscious telling you you're not on the clay, some kind of fatigue in the muscles used in releasing the trigger. Thankfully my incidents seem to be reducing and I think thats down to a couple of things, I've really started working hard on my pre-call routine and I've switched from 28s to 24s and will start to use 21s in practice just as soon as I can get hold of some in a make/brand I like.

 

[ehb102]

If you are in physical good health and if your brain is not physically affected by another condition then incidents such as this are likely to be caused by previous experience. I've posted before that I deal with traumatic memories that create post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Well, those memories don't need to be anything upsetting or nasty, just that the brain has kept those memories in tact and is triggered into re-running them. Technically I call these memories "traumatic" but don't let that be a judgement on the content of those memories. In this sense it simply means they are different from your normal memories. Think of them like a computer programme; it has a routine, it runs in a certain way and if it is started then it runs to the end.

Once you're away of a triggering situation it's technically easy, to take that traumatic memory and assimilate it to become like any other normal memory. It usually takes just one session. Even the most apparently innocuous incident memory will usually taken ninety minutes to process. The lack of processing and assimilation is what causes the problem with the memory in the first place. 

For me, dealing with big nasty memories is easy. It's helping a client to track down the very small, very subtle memories that presents a challenge. 

I've sent the OP a DM but anyone else should feel to contact me if they want to know more or discuss their own case. Quite often you'll know if you're being triggered if you watch out for the flood of cortisol in your system. It feels different to being "in the zone" on adrenalin. It's when your fight/flight/freeze response is activated. It makes it bloody hard to concentrate, and when it's happened to me whilst shooting I couldn't hit seriously easy baby clays for fifteen minutes until the effects had worn off. 

 

[Les53]

If you are in physical good health and if your brain is not physically affected by another condition then incidents such as this are likely to be caused by previous experience. I've posted before that I deal with traumatic memories that create post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Well, those memories don't need to be anything upsetting or nasty, just that the brain has kept those memories in tact and is triggered into re-running them. Technically I call these memories "traumatic" but don't let that be a judgement on the content of those memories. In this sense it simply means they are different from your normal memories. Think of them like a computer programme; it has a routine, it runs in a certain way and if it is started then it runs to the end.

Once you're away of a triggering situation it's technically easy, to take that traumatic memory and assimilate it to become like any other normal memory. It usually takes just one session. Even the most apparently innocuous incident memory will usually taken ninety minutes to process. The lack of processing and assimilation is what causes the problem with the memory in the first place. 

For me, dealing with big nasty memories is easy. It's helping a client to track down the very small, very subtle memories that presents a challenge. 

I've sent the OP a DM but anyone else should feel to contact me if they want to know more or discuss their own case. Quite often you'll know if you're being triggered if you watch out for the flood of cortisol in your system. It feels different to being "in the zone" on adrenalin. It's when your fight/flight/freeze response is activated. It makes it bloody hard to concentrate, and when it's happened to me whilst shooting I couldn't hit seriously easy baby clays for fifteen minutes until the effects had worn off. 

Yes I can understand the above Liz! I cannot understand however, why such a thing can make one person develope a flinch but not the next person. Could something as simple as say, a double discharge give a person a fear of pulling the trigger? Then we have the fact that some people who suffer the condition turn to using a release trigger, which apparently cures the problem. This I cannot understand at all to be honest! If one is subconsciously afraid of recoil, what difference does it make whether you pull or release a trigger? The recoil will still happen regardless of whether you pull or release!!! All a bit mind boggling really!!!

 

[Bryn12]

Very interesting Liz, thanks.

What you've posted begins to make sense when I think about it. I started learning skeet on 1&7 got them ingrained and confident on them, have been working bloody hard on 2&4 and am now pretty confident on them and 6, 3&5 are the stands I'm a bit doubtful about and those seem to be the ones I get a freeze on when it happens most, often 5 which is probably because I've hardly done any work on it.

 

[garry2749]

A friend of mine is suffering the same thing his Doctor is convinced its to do with carpal tunnel brought on by  old age.

There is an op avaliable but my friend is not keen. :comando:

 

[ehb102]

Yes I can understand the above Liz! I cannot understand however, why such a thing can make one person develope a flinch but not the next person. Could something as simple as say, a double discharge give a person a fear of pulling the trigger? Then we have the fact that some people who suffer the condition turn to using a release trigger, which apparently cures the problem. This I cannot understand at all to be honest! If one is subconsciously afraid of recoil, what difference does it make whether you pull or release a trigger? The recoil will still happen regardless of whether you pull or release!!! All a bit mind boggling really!!!

The mind is full of mysteries! But two people can go through the same experience and one will find it "traumatic" and one won't. It's partly to do with personal resilience - some people never seem to be touched by anything - and partly down to personal perception, the way you experience it. 

I wouldn't say that you were "subconsciously afraid of recoil" in these cases. I see it more that your brain reactivates a past memory and you're trying to operate through that timeline and also through the current timeline at the same time. If you swap to a recoil trigger it may be that the psychological trigger is never activated again. So you might not actually be afraid of recoil at all, but you might be reliving a memory when you hesitated pulling the trigger for some perfectly good reason. I've never had a client who didn't have a damn good reason for the most apparently illogical behaviours or fears.

If it is psychological of course. I was told I had trigger flinch but it turned out to be a burr on the mechanism. 

 

[Les53]

The mind is full of mysteries! But two people can go through the same experience and one will find it "traumatic" and one won't. It's partly to do with personal resilience - some people never seem to be touched by anything - and partly down to personal perception, the way you experience it. 

I wouldn't say that you were "subconsciously afraid of recoil" in these cases. I see it more that your brain reactivates a past memory and you're trying to operate through that timeline and also through the current timeline at the same time. If you swap to a recoil trigger it may be that the psychological trigger is never activated again. So you might not actually be afraid of recoil at all, but you might be reliving a memory when you hesitated pulling the trigger for some perfectly good reason. I've never had a client who didn't have a damn good reason for the most apparently illogical behaviours or fears.

If it is psychological of course. I was told I had trigger flinch but it turned out to be a burr on the mechanism. 

Aha!!!!  So herein lies the lesson then Liz.....before deciding that you have a flinch, make sure your gun is not crap!!!  I love it!!! :laugh:

 

[HDAV]

Aha!!!!  So herein lies the lesson then Liz.....before deciding that you have a flinch, make sure your gun is not crap!!!  I love it!!! :laugh:

SO take the gun to the doctor before you go.....

 

[westley]

With regards to the release trigger being the answer for SOME,  perhaps it is the fact that you are relaxing a muscle with the release trigger as opposed to tensioning a muscle with a standard trigger. I think that there are a lot more people who suffer from this annoying affliction than you may think. I have seen many cases BUT mainly on the trap layouts rather than on the sporting stands. It has always seemed to me that tension has been the root cause, in some cases the shooter has been physically shaking. Having said that, I have seen some extremely nervous first time shooters and 'trigger freeze' has never occured. Perhaps Mr. Coley can shed more light on the matter.

 

[Jan Powell]

With regards to the release trigger being the answer for SOME,  perhaps it is the fact that you are relaxing a muscle with the release trigger as opposed to tensioning a muscle with a standard trigger. I think that there are a lot more people who suffer from this annoying affliction than you may think. I have seen many cases BUT mainly on the trap layouts rather than on the sporting stands. It has always seemed to me that tension has been the root cause, in some cases the shooter has been physically shaking. Having said that, I have seen some extremely nervous first time shooters and 'trigger freeze' has never occured. Perhaps Mr. Coley can shed more light on the matter.

Indeed, it's a puzzler that is destroying my shooting. One point dropped at DTL is too much, not being able to shoot  4 or 5 targets because of freezing is beyond a joke!

I'm doubt it's a recoil issue. I shoot a PFS so felt recoil is never much anyway. The charactertics of the stock means a lighter load would make no difference, a 21g load feels the same as 28g. Fan fires have occurred in the past and whilst they're a shock when they happen they've never affected me for more than a couple of shots.

 

[westley]

Jan,

Can I ask if you have tried having a practice go on your own ?  You mentioned DTL so I presume that is your chosen discipline. If you could maybe have a word with the ground and ask if you could practice on your own with the trap 'locked up' (rotation OFF). Start at peg 3 and shoot your 5, then move to peg 2, then 4 then 1 and finally 5. Take your time and relax, do not rush things because you are on your own, try to imagine that another 4 are shooting before you take your next bird. Obviously it will help if you can find a buttoner, but do not worry about your score. Just use 1 barrel, that will improve your concentration and put your 'missed' empties in a vest pocket until you have finished. Then retire to the clubhouse and self analyse what you have done, over a coffee. You may find the result interesting !

 

[psych4shooting]

The whole issue of trigger freeze and/or flinch is a huge area. I am in the middle of a research project and actually have a research student working with me on this now. In the initial stages over the last 18 months I had been setting the background behind it and learning more about this from other sports, to avoid conjecture or hearsay within shooting. The hypothesis has been established as to "is trigger freeze caused by a psychological influence?".

We have now started to increase our sample size (the people taking part) to have a greater understanding of the issue - anyone still wanting to take part please email [email protected] to be included on this study. The study has been looking at those who have shot for over 30 years to those been shooting less than 2 years and also based on volume too. It is important to set the right baseline areas to come up with fact based evidence to support or dispell any theory.

To start to answer the question in brief terms of what has been found in the initial study is that the trigger freeze is psychological and that it is not just recoil or fear of recoil that leads to this, far too long seen as the main reason for flinch, not saying it isn`t, but saying it is certainly not the main reason. The key factors are recoil, fear of missing, lack of technique, peer pressure, misreading a target and too much shooting (this last one not to be confused with too much recoil over time).

Trigger freeze does have a medical term, it is called a focal dystonia, studies we have looked at revolve around fine motor skill sports and pastimes. Some of the most interesting and indepth studies have been in golf (the yips) and interestingly in high performing violin players, where actually the research is much closer to clay shooting than golf is. It is this research that we were able to use as the initial baseline. As a quick plug, we had promised on ClayShooting.tv to share some of this in the coming weeks and it will be on this weeks programme where we show what is going on.

To give a brief insight - when you send the message for your finger to pull the trigger, the message is blurred and instead of just the muscle groups needed to get your finger to pull the trigger being sent the message, all the muscle groups from your shoulders to your fingers are put into action, so you are then in a situation where you can`t pull the trigger. To correct this needs a change in the brain rewiring, so you need to change what you do or have done continually as the subconscious pattern has now become misaligned. A new pre-shot routine, a new target acquisition method, a new stance and approach can make the difference - so can the processing time for your preparation, this can either be sped up or slowed down. If the routine is slowed down a number of new cues are seen to assist including key words and actions and breathing techniques.

At present there is still no concrete evidence to what the overall cause of why someone gets it, but the causes of it are seen as above, so prevention is difficult at this stage, but we are hoping to establish cures that are simple and effective and to give a greater understanding of focal dystonia to those that get it, so they dont just have to get on with it and have their shooting spoilt. The areas we have been working on with some clients with severe trigger freeze have made a positive difference, but it is not a quick fix, so typically we are working with a client over an extended time period.

If anyone wants to become a subject for the research it is not too late and watch this weeks ClayShooting.tv where I describe it all in more detail, equally email [email protected]

 

[Bryn12]

Thanks Phil, that's very interesting and I look forward to learning more. When I was at the top of my game in smallbore I got to the point where I had enough confidence in my technique and routine to let the shot go on its own, with no conscious effort, in fact I won a county championship (50m & 100yds) in unreadable conditions with that method. It seems to me that one of the possibilities you're describing is almost the exact opposite and the autonomic system is saying 'nope you're not on it' so the shooter then forces the shot with the almost inevitable miss.

Last weekend I started using the pre-shot routine I'm working on for the first time, only had one freeze and I think that was because I'd got complacent and didn't stick to the plan.