Trigger Freeze

[Nimbusgb]

Shot on a squad with I suspect one of the forumites here today with a very pronounced trigger freeze. He was discussing it openly, ref too and I think Shaun has a few words. Was intriguing to watch. Whole arm, hand etc moved but no trigger pull, followed about 1/2 second later by a proper pull. Second b arrel appeared to be no problem though.

Strewth this is a real head game!

 

[ips]

It is my humble opinion that whatever you want to call it and however you want to explain it imo the root cause (other than a few technical exceptions) is quite simply a lack of confidence and or commitment on the shot.

 

[Jim Tyner]

I have seen numerous reasons speculated for trigger freeze. What is amazing is that in 95%+ of cases of trigger freeze a release trigger cures all of them instantly.

I have seen numerous shooters try an amazing array of supposed cures without true success. Install the release trigger and the problem evaporates.

You want to shoot and break targets? Install a release. You want to screw around for months or years and spend money on nonsense, ammo and lost targets? Good luck.

 

[psych4shooting]

Release triggers are an answer, but that is cure not prevention - release triggers are very common in the US and serve a purpose. The reason they work is the fact that you are reversing the muscle messages to the trigger finger area, so the pathway message is a new more conscious message.

 

[ips]

The above makes sense.

 

[jwpzx9r]

On Friday I had a bad day! I was putting my gear in the boot of the car when I spotted that one of my very expensive walking boots was missing ! I spent the next half hour trying to find it but nope gone so rather deflated and more than a bit upset I went to the shooting ground. I shot not badly but could not hold down a round .... but two or three times during the day I had what I perceived as very heavy almost gritty trigger pulls. I just thought it was odd and carried on I never had any problem with any shots following the bad pulls. Could this be a trigger freeze incident or does my trigger need a service? My mind was definitely not fully on what I was doing on Friday a small part of it was wondering where my lost expensive boot was, could this contribute to the trigger freeze scenario? Could it be my subconscious be thinking about the bloody boot instead of the target that caused what I thought were bad trigger pulls, it happened at least three times during the course of 6 rounds.

 

[Les53]

John, just drop the trigger out of that MX8 and clean it and oil it. Even very small particles of dirt can upset MX8 triggers mate.

 

[Salopian]

This was covered at length in December 2013.

I wrote a paper in 2011 about Flinching which was used by Phil Coley in a Shooting Times article in 2013.

I await new research and hopefully a cure for everyone to this debilitating ailment as soon as possible, there is no joy in looking forward to taking a shot and finding that for unknown reasons you cannot.

 

[ips]

Have we a link to the Dec 13 discussion

 

[no.1topdog]

Have we a link to the Dec 13 discussion

Ips, try this too.

http://www.clayshootingsuccess.co.uk/clayshootingblog/read_49675/trigger-freezeflinch.html

It's Salopian's Blog from Phil Coley's site that he mentions above. I was reading it the other day on behalf of a friend of mine who has this and it's getting worse. Thankfully as a Sporting Shooter he has a little more leeway than in Trap, but he always uses tight chokes and shoots a lot of long distance targets that are nearly on the ground!  :biggrin:

We will cure him of if in the end though!

 

[Jan Powell]

So, an update. Shot today. All going well, feeling confident, relaxed and seeing the targets clearly. Kills consistently good then, 5 targets from the end of the line...Freeze. Not just a flinch but complete paralysis of the finger. Target sails away with me completely unable to shoot it. As before my hand tightens around the grip but the trigger finger will not move. Next two targets the same. Final two targets I managed to get the shot off but with a great deal of effort and well past the optimum break point.

The next 75 targets all good, I dropped a few points but not freeze related.

This really is a puzzler. The problem appears suddenly then almost as quickly disappears. I find it hard to believe it's a lack of confidence or commitment to the shot. All aspects of my game are as they should be and when it occurs I don't feel under pressure.

Once again shooting the target very quickly, almost at a flash rather a visible target, helped. It's as if this technique doesn't allow my mind the time to say no. The problem is I don't consider this to a style that suits me or one that allows a great deal of consistency.

As before, all opinions welcome...

 

[Jim Tyner]

The reason they work is the fact that you are reversing the muscle messages to the trigger finger area, so the pathway message is a new more conscious message.

Doubt that holds up because as soon as the pathway was re-established a person couldn't let go of the trigger. Having shot a release for several years and 100,000+ targets, setting and letting go is not a "concious message". In fact, it never really was from day one. As for realease triggers in general, here is something I got a few years ago. It makes for an interesting read. BTW, Jan. Get a release and quit missing targets.

"I got the following note some time ago from a friend that he received from one of his friends. I did a couple of minor edits to protect their identities but the rest is presented as written. It's got nothing to do with flinching but it sure makes a strong case about release triggers.

"Hey XXXXXXX,

As you know, I took up Trapshooting a little more than 4 years ago using an old model 12 trap gun that was loaned to me by a friend. However, after I had demonstrated a commitment to the game, my father in law sent me an over/under. By chance, it had both release and pull dropout triggers. While I knew nothing about release triggers and had never flinched, I thought why not give it a try. One of the guys at the club where I shoot showed me how to use it. Bingo. Within a couple of rounds I was shooting better than I had ever shot before. I soon gave ATA a try. I liked it and within XX months I was shooting AA/27.

I have watched the arguments about release triggers on TS.com for quite a while. I never felt qualified to jump in and participate because most of these arguments referred to flinching rather than just whether a release trigger is a better method of firing a trap gun. Because I had never had a problem with flinching, I do not understand anything about that problem. However, here is where it gets interesting. I have a very unique job. I am a team coordinator/referee/slave driver/mother hen for a team of exceptionally educated, experienced professionals representing a variety of engineering, medical, psychological and research disciplines. Our business is rocket science and brain surgery so to speak.

We are all employed by a major aerospace firm and while some of what we do is highly classified, most of it is of a standard commercial nature. What we do is provide independent testing for human interface control systems to determine if those controls are designed in such a manner as to eliminate as much probability of human error as possible. Simply put, this might just be whether it is better for a two way toggle switch to have up as off and down as on or vice versa. However, think of the control array in a 737 cockpit, the space shuttle or a nuclear power plant and that is what people pay us a lot of money to test. We usually have about 10 people on a team and we bill at $8000-$10,000 per hour.

About once a quarter we try to get the team out of the labs and into a more natural setting. I decided that a day at my trap club might be a lot of fun. I recruited a friend to help me with getting the guys to the line and shooting, and hopefully, hitting some targets. We had four trap guns, three with pull triggers and mine with the release. I was surprised at how easily some of the guys took to shooting the release. Afterwards, as we were sitting around enjoying chili dogs, the guys who used the release trigger started asking questions as to why my gun had a release and the other guns had pulled triggers. I gave the standard overview concerning flinching. However, these guys immediately were interested in whether a release trigger is a better human control interface for firing a trap gun. Much discussion ensued and everyone had a great time bringing their particular discipline to bear, but being research scientists no one would accept a resolution without specific testing.

A couple of weeks later, we had cleared the decks for a large contract concerning a fire control system for a shipboard missile defense system. The package was to arrive on the appointed morning and we had completed constructing our testing protocols. However, as I was conducting what I thought was the final check list meeting, we were notified that their might be a delay in delivery. Somehow the conversation flowed back to the outing at the trap club and then the discussion about release triggers. About that time, we were notified that delivery would be delayed at least 24 hours. So here is all this high-priced talent with nothing to do so someone suggested why not apply our talents to a release trigger review. Needless to say, numerous bets were quickly made. Having previously received security clearance to bring my trap gun into the employee parking lot, I happened to have my gun in my trunk. A quick call to security and I and my trap gun were being escorted into the lab.

Soon, we had several volunteers with wires attached from their trigger fingers, up their arms, on their spinal column and all over their heads. Others were studying the mechanical forces required and exerted by the two different triggers. Data was collected in the number crunching began. After a bit over five hours of research we had our answer.

Our typical project results in a document that runs from 20 pages for something very simple to several hundred pages for multiple function control arrays. However, while these reports are very helpful for the design and manufacturing teams, we have devised a simple ratio to present so that non-technical management people can quickly appreciate the value propositions of one system versus another. To do this we assign the least desirable functionality a value of one. We then assign the better functionality a value of plus one. By example, if we have found that the up is the worst position for "on" for the toggle switch then we might say that having "off" is a 1.14 better choice. We call this the better alternative ratio.

Because most of the products/systems that we test our very well designed with a lot of previous knowledge applied, our alternative ratio is usually fairly low. In fact, previously the highest alternative ratio that we have estimated for a manual control was a 2.67. Now, drumroll, the release trigger came back with a better alternative ratio compared to the pull trigger of 3.27 based upon a projected 100 repetitions in a 45 minute time frame. Quite frankly I was shocked at how big the difference was. Even though I had seen my shooting improve after getting the gun with the release trigger, there were lots of other variables that I am sure contributed to that progress.

In summary, we produced a result that someone would have had to pay us about $45,000 to achieve. While I can't add anything to the discussion about flinching, I think I can categorically state that a release trigger provides a substantial biomechanical superiority to a pull trigger for shooting a trap gun.

Of course, we all know that many of the best trapshooters successfully use pull triggers and achieve 99% plus results. We also know that the majority of release trigger users will never achieve 99% plus results. However, if I were going to train 100 qualified candidates that can fly fighter jets to shoot trap, every one of them would have a gun with a release trigger."

 

[Salopian]

I have assisted numerous people with this affliction to the point of being able to say that all of them now do not suffer and none use a release trigger.

Interesting write up above, perhaps someone should number crunch how difficult it is to tension the finger versus how difficult it is is to relax the finger ?

 

[Jim Tyner]

That's basically what they did and it showed that a pull trigger is 3.27 harder to use than a release triger and that is the biggest difference in two comparative systems they had ever seen.

If you really can cure people of trigger freeze, come to the USA  like during the Grand American and get rich. Of course, you will be the first to have delivered on that promise.

 

[PhilS]

That's basically what they did and it showed that a pull trigger is 3.27 harder to use than a release triger and that is the biggest difference in two comparative systems they had ever seen.

If you really can cure people of trigger freeze, come to the USA  like during the Grand American and get rich. Of course, you will be the first to have delivered on that promise.

Wouldn't that depend on the weight of the trigger pull?

And interested to know how the release trigger makes you more accurate? When I pull the trigger I do not pull my gun off line (or I wouldn't hit anything) so I am struggling to see how swapping to a release would make me hit more.......

 

[ips]

I don't get release triggers either Phil but they have been proven to work for some.

Its a slippery slope this trigger freeze as i imagine it gets into your head and compacts the issue further. Good luck to Jan i am sure he will come through it, most people i have known have quite soon.

 

[PhilS]

I don't get release triggers either Phil but they have been proven to work for some.

Its a slippery slope this trigger freeze as i imagine it gets into your head and compacts the issue further. Good luck to Jan i am sure he will come through it, most people i have known have quite soon.

I have no doubt that they work for trigger freeze Ian, but Jim Tyler was inferring that they make you a better shot - " One of the guys at the club where I shoot showed me how to use it. Bingo. Within a couple of rounds I was shooting better than I had ever shot before"

Hmmmmm............

 

[Jim Tyner]

Phil,

The study wasn't about the force required to pull the trigger. It was about the total biomechanical processes required. My friend said they even consider muscle function enzyme types and production rates along with all sorts of neurolgical timings and pathways starting with nerves controlling the eyes and the interference caused by calling "pull", etc. Pretty sophisticated stuff. The result is that they try to quantify the probabilities of a person doing something "wrong" (making a physical or mental error) if they do it one way as opposed to another way.

As far as making one a better shot, I can personally relate to that. I got a release trigger primarily because of arthritis in my trigger finger which would get sore after 200+ round in a day. I was too new to shooting( first year) to know what trigger freeze was though I did experience it maybe 1 or 2 times per 100 but no so bad that it would cause me to miss the target usually. When I got the release, the freeze of course disappeared but my score average did go up far more( 91 to 95) than the freeze misses because it is a very smooth and effortless way to fire the gun.

In my club with 125 competitive shooters, about 10 of us are classified AAA in singles and of those 10, 5 shoot release.

Based on my experience and my experience with other shooters, a release trigger is one item with which you can actually "buy" a better average.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I have to mildly disagree with Jim.  A crap shooter will be a crap shooter pull or release.  A good shooter with near insignificant problems may improve with a release.  Or not.  You cannot buy a better average beyond your innate abilities.  You might be able to improve your equipment to maximize your talent.  Or not.

I went to a release 'cuz it's the fastest two shot setup.  And I can't trap the trigger.  My move was for fool-proofing.

Other than that I said everything I have to say on the topic the last round we did here.  Which involved the ISSF rule IIRC.  The STUPID ISSF ruled

 

[Jim Tyner]

When I said "buy" it can be in the same context of buying ajustable combs, recoil reduction a custom fit stock, etc and results will vary. However, for those who are losing 1-4 targets per hundred just because of trigger freeze they really can get an average boost.