Trigger freeze
- Thread starter Shaun Hopkins
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Release triggers undoubtedly can improve the problem for Trap shooters.
But I am not convinced that they will cure Sporting shooters and may also cause negligent discharge in a sporting environment.
In fact I need to be convinced that release triggers are a cure for trigger maladies rather than being just another diversion to the real problem. Maybe they are an aid but not a cure.
But I am not convinced that they will cure Sporting shooters and may also cause negligent discharge in a sporting environment.
In fact I need to be convinced that release triggers are a cure for trigger maladies rather than being just another diversion to the real problem. Maybe they are an aid but not a cure.
There was an ongoing and occasionally snotty thread about this on the American forum. Many there thought the same about release triggers because they address the sympton rather than the problem.
As with most people on internet forums I'm about to comment on a subject I know sweet f all about!
I would strongly suspect that there are a multitude of reasons that people develop freezes or flinches. If it is recoil (which I personally doubt) then it's not the recoil but the psychology/mind/brain that is the problem, you reduce the recoil but the brain still thinks it's going to get a blow so still the flinch. I haven't got an earthly how to cure it and I'm not going to speculate. I do however know a well known Northern shooter & course setter who has completely cured a flinch by switching to a Krieghoff with a release trigger. This is a guy who was a recognized good shot in the late 70's, the 80's and 90's. His scores just gradually slipped over the years which I assumed was the natural effect of aging, ( he has just become an English sporting veteran) This guy by the way is exclusively an English & FITASC Sporting shooter, as with all people of sound mind the only time he stands in a line is if he's shooting Compak or Sportrap.
Anyhoo, I was chatting to him a couple of months ago at Grange Farm and complimented him on his recent surge in form and a string of good results. He then told us it was since his recent acquisition of his release trigger gun. He said he'd done some research into his flinching problem ( which was news to me as he'd never made a fuss about the flinch) and it was info from the USA which made him go to the expense of a new gun and imported trigger mechanism. It's certainly worked, he's currently on fire, will be back up into AA or even AAA at the next classification period and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets onto the FITASC or E. Sporting vets team within the next couple of years.
I doubt if he would claim that it's a cure for everyone but it sure has worked for him. As with most afflictions it can be approached in more than one way, you can try and find the root cause and cure that or you can just work on a solution, I doubt if the guy I'm on about knows what the root cause of his flinch was but judging by the grin on his face the last few times I've seen him mean that he cares not a jot, his scores are more important than knowing the cause.
Mr Potter ,
Skeet UK
Well-known member
This guy I only know through skeet, so yes...non sporting. I am not sure exactly how they work, but I suspect it is similar to a set trigger, in that you pull to set, and release to fire. So could potentially be an issue with JR's...certainly whilst unfamiliar.
VicW
Well-known member
Phil, I don't shoot with him all that often these days but the last time I did he certainly didn't have a flinch or freeze problem.
I don't suffer personally but I would think that if it was associated with recoil then the shooter would have other,physical effects,such as a sore neck,shoulder or back etc that would make the brain say,'That's going to hurt so I'm not going to let you do it.'
I could certainly believe the theory of being afraid of missing causing you to subconsciously not want to pull to pull the trigger for fear of failure.
Does anyone know if any top class shots suffer or have ever suffered from freeze?
Vic.
Interesting topic this. Perhaps looking at other sports would also help to understand 'Trigger Freeze' a bit more. Darts is the first one that springs to my mind, as some players can suffer with 'Dart-itus' Seeing someone trying to let go of a dart is awful, its like it is stuck to there hand. A friend of mine had it many years ago. The more he played the worse it got, in the end he had to stop playing for around 6 months. When he started playing again, he had to totally change the way he threw his darts. It was the only way he could take part in the sport again.
psych4shooting
Well-known member
Golf is a good parallel, with the putting "yips", again underlining the mental aspect, but also the advent of RSI (repetitive stress injury) too.
Shaun Hopkins
Well-known member
With regards to the yips in golf and dart players being unable to release darts should we assume this elimitates recoil as a possible cause? as i stated earlier never to my knowledge occurs during the first barrel adding weight to the argument! after trying to eliminate one issue at a time i find myself playing around with different grip tension and position of the trigger finger although easier said then done as years of habit are hard to break leading to grip tension tightening half way through the stand, maybe trying to completely break contact with the trigger blade with every shot could solve this but i feel this would need many hours of dry firing practice..
I don't think you can dismiss recoil but in your case possibly less likely. US trap shooters suffer from flinch on a regular basis it seems, so much so that release triggers are a regular method of combating it. Now without being too rude it would be hard to miss such targets more than once in a while so fear of missing can't be the primary cause 
, heavier loads are possibly more to blame there?
VicW, I don't know about top class as in household name but for what it's worth in my experience it happens to the better shots more often, reinforcing the fear of missing theory.
, heavier loads are possibly more to blame there?VicW, I don't know about top class as in household name but for what it's worth in my experience it happens to the better shots more often, reinforcing the fear of missing theory.
psych4shooting
Well-known member
This is the reason for the research, to actually find out what the causes are, it could be recoil, it could be mental blocks, it could be a number of things. I just want to get as much data as possible and do fact based research. Any help would be great - don`t forget this research is being self funded by me to help all shooters.I don't think you can dismiss recoil but in your case possibly less likely. US trap shooters suffer from flinch on a regular basis it seems, so much so that release triggers are a regular method of combating it. Now without being too rude it would be hard to miss such targets more than once in a while so fear of missing can't be the primary cause
VicW, I don't know about top class as in household name but for what it's worth in my experience it happens to the better shots more often, reinforcing the fear of missing theory.
Someone I shoot with fairly often has a real problem with this. I've seen it happen as often as 5 or 6 times in a round of 50. For a long while he's blamed the gun saying that although the triggers have been lightened he gets an occasional heavy pull which causes him to lurch and miss. Maybe he's right but I'm not convinced. I've told him that I think it's trigger freeze or flinching as the Americans call it and in his case it seems to be worse when he tracks the target for a long time.
His technique is to start with a low gun, mount when he sees the target, then swing to the break point - which in his case is generally late in the flight. Quite often he has the gun fully mounted for what seems like ages and I'm thinking FFS shoot the damn thing. And that's typically when the freeze happens. Interestingly it doesn't happen with trap style or any sort of time limited shots.
When I see him next I'll ask if he wants to participate in Phil's program.
His technique is to start with a low gun, mount when he sees the target, then swing to the break point - which in his case is generally late in the flight. Quite often he has the gun fully mounted for what seems like ages and I'm thinking FFS shoot the damn thing. And that's typically when the freeze happens. Interestingly it doesn't happen with trap style or any sort of time limited shots.
When I see him next I'll ask if he wants to participate in Phil's program.
VicW
Well-known member
The friend I spoke of earlier was told not to grip the stock with his trigger finger,only the other three fingers, as this puts tension in the finger and can cause an inability to pull the trigger.
He tried it and with some practice succeeded and it helped considerably. He says he has to consciously think about but it has become part of his routine.
Vic.
He tried it and with some practice succeeded and it helped considerably. He says he has to consciously think about but it has become part of his routine.
Vic.
I get it occassionally,
I have convinced myself that most of the time it is when I am just about to take a bad shot that would have missed anyway, usually I have time to correct and hit with about the same frequency as I would in a round (say 8/10), so for me it is not about fear of failure but a subconcious realisation that something is not right and the freeze is a way of preventing a miss. This means that in my mind a freeze is a positive thing (especially if I can recover to hit) and therefore becomes a benefit rather than a hindrance. Still bloody annoying though as it ruins your rythm.
I used to get it a lot with my game gun on pheasants - but that turned out to be me forgetting to push the autosafety forwards when mounting - solution; get it removed,
I have convinced myself that most of the time it is when I am just about to take a bad shot that would have missed anyway, usually I have time to correct and hit with about the same frequency as I would in a round (say 8/10), so for me it is not about fear of failure but a subconcious realisation that something is not right and the freeze is a way of preventing a miss. This means that in my mind a freeze is a positive thing (especially if I can recover to hit) and therefore becomes a benefit rather than a hindrance. Still bloody annoying though as it ruins your rythm.
I used to get it a lot with my game gun on pheasants - but that turned out to be me forgetting to push the autosafety forwards when mounting - solution; get it removed,
Hi JohnyT,
I think you'll find proper flinch/freeze is when people can't pull the trigger. It is a surreal moment, the finger is locked on as is everything else but the brain and trigger finger won't speak to each other.
I think you'll find proper flinch/freeze is when people can't pull the trigger. It is a surreal moment, the finger is locked on as is everything else but the brain and trigger finger won't speak to each other.
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teepee1234
Well-known member
Just remembered Patsy Fagan in the snooker world in the 80's. He struggled to let the shot go when he was using the rest - practice strokes getting faster and faster, but he just couldn't pull the trigger on it! Awful thing to watch.
I don't recall seeing it happen to Patsy Fagan but I'm certain that my mate's problem is similar because he just can't seem to pull the trigger. I've shot his gun a number of times and had no funnies with the trigger.
Shaun Hopkins
Well-known member
Just to update Phil since my last post, shooting a practice round last wednesday my problem seems to have increased considerably and also shooting a 100 bird comp at greenfields sunday where for the first time it happened on the first and second barrel both times resulting in a miss by a considerable margin all in all my trigger froze about eight times on sunday alone as you can imagine this ruined my card, with all this in mind it leads me to think in my case for sure its got to be a mental block as usually twice would be considered about the norm, hope this helps..
optima
Well-known member
This may or may not be of use to you shaun, i,ve had trouble with trigger freeze flinch etc for few years,started when i started shooting international qualifiers but whether this was anything to do with putting pressure on myself( mental block) or was due to increased shooting and recoil i don,t really know. i suspect it was mental as i was shooting thousands of pigeons and crows per year without any issue,s.Anyway on one qualifier i had 16 freeze/flinches and was all set to give up shooting,so changed my gun to a heavier kreigoff k 80,started shooting 24grm shells and even went to someone who,s supposed to specalise in curing this sort of thing with hypnotisum and the result was it made no difference whatsoever.
I was experiencing 3 different types,trigger freeze where i,d get to the kill point and could,nt pull it,a flinch where i,d get a sudden surge in the left arm pushing the gun away,and another where i,d pull the trigger before the gun had acctually got to the target let alone in front of it. Anyway i noticed over time that it was mainley happening on slow moving targets where i would track it for a while before shooting it,i got over this by keeping gun out of shoulder and tracking it with my eyes mounting the gun and pulling trigger in one movement,this all but elliminated it on the slow targets but would still get an occasional one on a diferent target,but i could live with an odd one.Had not much trouble for a year or two.
However 6-8 weeks ago all went wrong again,my scores slumped and my flinch came back,was aware my scores were dropping off a bit and couldn,t understand why,but worse when i was missing i didn,t know where or why?? usually when i miss a target i know where i,ve missed it,but i was pulling the trigger thinking thats dead and watch it sail on by untouched,shot the world prelims at westfield,nice shoot not overly hard shot a 79, miissing targets and flinching ,shot red course at worlds next day shot 68,tougher course admittedly but i couldn,t even hit the easier stuff and was flinchinng badley.
Anyway sat at home saturday night the only thing i could put it down to was gun fit,i,ve had my DT 10 for 2 years now and shot some good scores with it,but in the last 4 months i,ve been on a diet and lost 4 stone in weight,so jacked my adjustable stock up sat night (about 5 mm) and shot the blue course on the sunday,only shot a 79,but at least when i missed i knew where i,d missed,not like the day before where i didn,t have a clue,and above all only had 1 flinch as opposed to 6 or 7 day before. ANyway following saturday i went to mid wales shooting ground where john the ground owner had a look at my gunfit and said it was still way too low,so lifted it up and moved it over a bit,tried it on pattern plate,bang on 60-40%.. shot a 23 and 24 on the skeet and shot the sporting really well. shot 3 sporting shoots since, had 2 flinches and shot a 91,89 and 86 and know exactly where i missed the one,s i missed,so my flinch was triggered this time by poor gunfit and head lifting off the stock looking for the target,might be worth having it checked out,i never thought it could possibly be this but it was!!
Shaun Hopkins
Well-known member
Thanks for your reply optima what you have written is exactly what has happened to me over the last few years its almost spooky what with tracking slow targets, missing easy clays that should just dusted and as for gun fit am always lifting my head, the type of flinches you had are also identical my scores have dropped quite a bit going from winning A class regular to not even keeping up with C class now.. will get my gunfit checked this week for sure and try the pattern plate. will update with results asap. cheers....
