What Shooting Method ?

[Will Hewland]

My overwhelming impression is that there is so much talent at the top in this country it's incredible. And rather disparaging! Make AA at your peril. Nobody-ville beckons.. ? I feel that I have shot well at most recent shoots, but phew, I'm just not there in terms of the money..

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I can't argue with any of that, all seems pretty reasonable, since I really don't have any involvement in it.  I understand there are "hot spots" of activity but the US is so big that I'd guess only a very few have the means to hit a lot of very different places.  But like I say, I don't know.

 

[Docterduck]

One thought I had that COULD explain this view more in the USA than over here is the difference in how they set targets.

obviously there are some exceptions like the worlds Doug set this year, but generally the targets I've seen over there are a lot steadier than we see over here, and large gaps are not needed (again, from my limited experience) where as a 12 foot lead is something you will see most weeks if you shoot in the UK regularly. The bigger gaps need a different approach to the "look at the bird and shoot it" quartering aways and settling birds.

maybe...

I like it and so true.  Distance and the target's speed and where is the insertion point come with practice cuzz

"The Eyes can't see what the Mind doesn't Know"!

 

[simon123]

My usual shooting technique is as follows:

1. See bird/clay
2. Mount gun
3. Apply the correct lead
4. Pull the trigger

And if the clay is still in the air after shot is taken, then i blame myself!!

 

[unplugged]

I will offer an insight as there seems to be some lack of understanding of Sporting in the USA.

I lived 45 minutes from 9 Sporting (NSCA targets) grounds/clubs. 3 were "professionally" run, and two of those were run by Pat Lieske. ( a FITASC and Sporting national champion.) TO suggest we "lack" target variety is myoptic at best. Many of our clubs have a vast variety of terrain, from flat to real hills. (One several hours away is built on an old SKI HILL and offers shots found at very few other places.) If I list clubs within  four hours drive (an easy weekend) there are far more that throw STIFF targets.

In Texas the lads can shoot several different clubs registered shoots each weekend. And shoots at clubs around the USA may vary in difficulty, but if you look at scores "from proven BRITISH shooters" that attend said shoots, you will be hard pressed to say the targets are soft. Witness all 4 early shoots held in Florida every spring, starting with Doug Vine targets at South Florida, to and including the Seminole cup. There are regional and State shoots held all Summer long around our Country that offer testy targets.

One big difference I see is many of the "weekend shoots" held near me have far more targets offered than what seems to be the case in England. At out "trail shoots" (again Pat Lieske targets) we have a 200 target main event, a 100 target prelim, sub gage, 5 stand, and FITASC. And this is a local State type event, not a regional shoot.

While folks over there may get to several grounds and shoots each weekend, we also have far more targets offered per event (from the ads and results listed over there)

How many of your "weekend" shoots offer more than 200 targets? It's not uncommon for local events to have 300 sporting 12 ga (prelim and main) 100 super sporting, 100 FITASC, 5 stand and even "true pair" courses just for one event.

While some areas are known for soft targets, we also have many more that are becoming known for VERY STIFF testy targets. Houston Texas, Tuscon , Northbrook Ill.

Several in Ohio. So hard targets are becoming the norm at many big clubs around here.

I'm retired and have cut back in my own shooting, (I used to shoot 7500-8000 registered targets a year, and now that I've retired I only shoot around 3500 registered)

From friends that have traveled to shoot in GB, they think many of our clubs are throwing just as stiff targets as you get...

While our "internet" is full of fluff comments, major clubs in every state are available to a large number of shooters..

I don't know of any top shooters that aren't traveling the country EVERY WEEKEND throughout the Summer, shooting from one end of the USA to the other.

That is why Gebben, Derrick, and Wendel etal.(our other top pros) are winning. 

We have many top club shooters(around the USA) that give the "pros" a run when they shoot anywhere at "local" shoots.    

 

[move-mount-miss]

I would love to see a "Ryder Cup" of sporting. 12 man team picked by a captain (ladies also), then a series of match play events held over a weekend. There could be team flushes, a live leader board etc. Well I'd watch it!!

 

[ExSCA]

They do a Ryder Cup style event along side the main World Sporting (the CPSA/NSCA one) - it's normally on the thursday evening I think. 

 

[timps]

I will offer an insight as there seems to be some lack of understanding of Sporting in the USA.

I lived 45 minutes from 9 Sporting (NSCA targets) grounds/clubs. 3 were "professionally" run, and two of those were run by Pat Lieske. ( a FITASC and Sporting national champion.) TO suggest we "lack" target variety is myoptic at best. Many of our clubs have a vast variety of terrain, from flat to real hills. (One several hours away is built on an old SKI HILL and offers shots found at very few other places.) If I list clubs within  four hours drive (an easy weekend) there are far more that throw STIFF targets.

In Texas the lads can shoot several different clubs registered shoots each weekend. And shoots at clubs around the USA may vary in difficulty, but if you look at scores "from proven BRITISH shooters" that attend said shoots, you will be hard pressed to say the targets are soft. Witness all 4 early shoots held in Florida every spring, starting with Doug Vine targets at South Florida, to and including the Seminole cup. There are regional and State shoots held all Summer long around our Country that offer testy targets.

One big difference I see is many of the "weekend shoots" held near me have far more targets offered than what seems to be the case in England. At out "trail shoots" (again Pat Lieske targets) we have a 200 target main event, a 100 target prelim, sub gage, 5 stand, and FITASC. And this is a local State type event, not a regional shoot.

While folks over there may get to several grounds and shoots each weekend, we also have far more targets offered per event (from the ads and results listed over there)

How many of your "weekend" shoots offer more than 200 targets? It's not uncommon for local events to have 300 sporting 12 ga (prelim and main) 100 super sporting, 100 FITASC, 5 stand and even "true pair" courses just for one event.

While some areas are known for soft targets, we also have many more that are becoming known for VERY STIFF testy targets. Houston Texas, Tuscon , Northbrook Ill.

Several in Ohio. So hard targets are becoming the norm at many big clubs around here.

I'm retired and have cut back in my own shooting, (I used to shoot 7500-8000 registered targets a year, and now that I've retired I only shoot around 3500 registered)

From friends that have traveled to shoot in GB, they think many of our clubs are throwing just as stiff targets as you get...

While our "internet" is full of fluff comments, major clubs in every state are available to a large number of shooters..

I don't know of any top shooters that aren't traveling the country EVERY WEEKEND throughout the Summer, shooting from one end of the USA to the other.

That is why Gebben, Derrick, and Wendel etal.(our other top pros) are winning. 

We have many top club shooters(around the USA) that give the "pros" a run when they shoot anywhere at "local" shoots.    

At the shoots you attend do you or any of the successful shooters use the hard focus just see the detail on the clay and the subconscious will take care of the rest method?

As Solopian pointed out none of us over here seem to use this method, one reason given is on the decent registered shoots you are going to struggle on the long range targets. On these targets regardless of what method you use you are going to see some sort of lead / barrel awareness if you want to hit it consistently. 

It is not to say your shoots are easy, I am just as adept at missing a tricky quartering bird that is deceiving and doesn’t require much in the way of lead as I am 60 yard batue. Just I cannot ever see the hard focus and subconscious method working on the distant targets that I see over here. 

So I guess we are just trying to work out why this method seems popular on the USA forums. Either it’s just something that people on the internet say like ‘make sure it fits’ without knowing why they are saying it and it means nothing or it does actually work in the USA.

Obviously if it works in the USA then there has to be a difference in target presentations between the two countries or we would be seeing some advocates over here. 

 

[Jim Wheeler]

the aussies say this,,,,,,


and how to,, http://ssaa.org.au/ssaa-tv/how-to-lead-a-target-when-shotgun-shooting.

 

[Bebo]

Glad I don't have to do their laundry, what with all that following through.

 

[unplugged]

Timps,

Yes the guys that "profess" this method are some of the top shooters, David Radulovich being one. He is a "product/student" of Wendel Cherry. Perhaps you may have noticed their results. One thing missing from the discussion of "look at the target/stare at the target" is all of those guys "preload" the lead. That is they know the lead required, and consciously "think about that" in their "preshot" routine. Then they "say" they just look at the targets. I've watched many top shooters in action, including GB and RF. No matter what they profess in "videos" they all use several different methods.!

I attended our US OPEN, and the PROs were there. I watched most shoot on the course! (Including Gebben, David, Richard, Wendel, and Bill Mcquire)

What I saw was guys with their guns tracking long targets (jsoft mounted) and then inserting on the line at the shot. To the causal observer you would say they were RIDING the target much longer than "ordinary Joes". But that "riding was still head slightly off the stock, and then insert and fire. The only reason I can see for "staying" with the targets (and yes take a look at the results and you will see they were LONG and very fast) is to get the "SIGHT PICTURE." 

So when they say "only look at the target", they still are acquiring a SIGHT PICTURE (perhaps more subconsciously) when triggering the shot.

Gebben's video is a great example of how most top shots are acquiring lead. It's called intercept, and yes sight picture is involved, but lead happens from proper set up, gun hold and WHERE you INSERT and fire. I think the "misnomer" of "stare at the targets" is not understanding how intercept method is being used. I am far from a top shot, but I use intercept (some here call it "gun dragging"). I would say it is more of a "modified" pull away. The gun is under the line and inserted on about a 30 to 45 degree angle, the target 

never gets to the barrel, and the gun is inserted on line as the "sight picture happens" (as opposed to LOOKING for a sight picture, or looking for lead) and some have said they "feel the lead". (again perhaps misleading due to language differences) 

But for me, I know the lead (or think about where the gun should be in the set up) as the target is released, I stare hard at the target, gun (having a proper hold point ahead of the target) is inserted from slightly below into the lead (where you insert is part of the lead) and I fire when it "feels" right. And by feel, I mean, I haven't tried to CREATE a sight picture, but the sight picture HAPPENS as a result of proper set up, and as I am staring at the target (the gun is moving in my peripheral,) only slightly faster than the target (an Anthony Matarese method) when the sight picture comes together I fire..

For my meager results I placed in my class in Super Sporting at the US OPEN, and many of those targets were FAST AND LONG, more than a few over 60 yards. I managed with my method to break the longest target on SS course three times by "feeling the lead" while looking hard at the target....But I did know where the gun was when I fired!!

Sorry for the long post, but in closing I think the main point of "look hard at the target" method, is expecting LEAD/sight picture to HAPPEN as a result of proper set up, hold point look point and insert/break point. As opposed to the traditional "maintained lead and pull away" you are "trying" to make lead. Cognitively, lead happens rather than TRYING Consciously to MAKE a LEAD. Both systems work! As witnessed by Gebben and Derick's result ON arguably the longest targets anyone shoots at Dubia. 

P.S.

I should add, I set a course here (small local club) but I have 28 traps that I can set anywhere I wish for practice. The daily course here has four targets at 40 to 45 yards, and three that are 50 to 58 yards. I measure every target distance. I do get complaints from some casual shooters that don't like targets set that stiff. But we have "hoops" ahead of the LONG stations (like ladies tees in golf) so shooters can shot "daily" targets at a reduced distance (on the several long stations), and most would rather complain than shoot "from a reduced"  distance hoop!!

 

[westley]

Do they have a funky 70's sleaze boogie soundtrack?

NO, but they come in a plain brown wrapper !

 

[timps]

Unplugged thanks for the detailed response.

I have read some posts on the subject including some by David Radulovich  and I accept that I don't fully understand it. Mainly because I genuinely don't see how anyone can see the rings or ridges of a clay 45 + yards out when it's travelling at speed.

 Even if I could see those details I cannot see how doing so then helps me break the clay.

It's not so much the technique of adding lead and the set up of the shot just the ability to see detail on the clay and the benefit of doing so that I have issue with.

I can and do focus on the clay and subconsciously add lead, but that only works for me on targets that require little to no perceived lead and I still cannot see any detail on the clay.  Once a target requires lead I need some barrel awareness and this is the issue I have. If I focus so hard on the clay and could see the kind of detail that is claimed how do I then have peripheral vision and barrel awareness.

David Radulovich is a very talented shot with infinitely better shooting credentials than I will ever have so I am in no real position to argue with him on how to shoot clays.

But when people claim that they can see this kind of detail on every target I automatically assume rightly or wrongly close in clays and slower speeds.

I have no doubt on the shooting ability of the shooters you mention it's just whether they can see the detail they claim at the long distances and the benefits of doing so I have a sticking point with. 

You are probably right about the language differences though, I read somewhere about 'not seeing the lead but feeling the lead' which kind of confused me as surely you would still see it regardless of how you applied it. Not seeing it implies you have no barrel awareness whatsoever which has probably added to my confusion of this method.  

 

[Hamster]

I personally don't believe that you need to look entirely and only at the clay during the latter phases of completing the shot. In fact I'm prepared to take a wager that if and when cameras tracking eye movement become available the very best shots will often be seen to be looking AT/FOR the clay rather briefly. I believe we look ahead an awful lot more than we think. 

 

[ips]

I think it only fare at this point to differentiate a method for sporting is not necessarily the same as trap. It is my experience that at trap look anywere other than AT the target will result in a miss.

just in case this topic is confusing any new trap shooters.

carry-on

 

[GrrClark]

I personally don't believe that you need to look entirely and only at the clay during the latter phases of completing the shot. In fact I'm prepared to take a wager that if and when cameras tracking eye movement become available the very best shots will often be seen to be looking AT/FOR the clay rather briefly. I believe we look ahead an awful lot more than we think. 

I have found on targets that need a lot of lead that if I only look at the clay I will miss, I lose the relationship between the target and the gun.

I tend to shoot maintained lead and on targets needing a lot of lead then it is a mixture of maintained lead to get the line and target speed then pull away to increase the lead prior to taking the shot.  As I pull away I am looking where the gun is going, so looking forward as you suggest.  If I only looked at the target I would end up slowing the gun to shrink the gap.

This has been a bit of a recent revelation to me as when I was just looking at the clay I was not giving nearly enough lead on some targets.

 

[jwpzx9r]

I think it only fare at this point to differentiate a method for sporting is not necessarily the same as trap. It is my experience that at trap look anywere other than AT the target will result in a miss.

just in case this topic is confusing any new trap shooters.

carry-on

Total agreement from me Ian. I use a method that is based on seeing the target first then watching that target for a split second BEFORE my gun is moved. The idea is that in that very brief moment of time my brain has time to analyse the angle, trajectory and speed the gun is then moved very fast to the point at which the shot is taken... don't ask me why the shot is taken I don't know but I am looking at the target at the time I pull the trigger not my gun .

 

[ips]

absolutely john.

 

[Salopian]

Would this not then be described as 'Swing Through'?

But don't worry too much about a shooting method for Trap as it is only practiced by 'Old Men'.

Perhaps successful Trap shooting style could be called 'Disabled Dimentia'?

 

[ips]

ha, cheeky git.

swing through is prob best description but as you know in trap its gun speed that imparts the lead there is or rather should not be any conscious amount of lead given or big problems will occur.