ABT, UT, OT shooters.. what do you 'see'....?

[newbie]

so, a pretty open question but wondering what the established OT shooters 'see' when they prepare and call for a target? 

Thinking along the lines of what condition your eyes are in, where they look, how they feel and what you see before calling, once called and when then track and hit the target..

you hear all sorts of guidance like soft focus, hard focus, gaze, prepherially acquire target etc etc etc.

Anyone care to share in their own words what the see and how they feel?

I guess sharing the whole routine to lead to that would also be good?

 

[40UP]

You know the feeling on the perfect shot when you pick up the target as it passes the end of the barrel, you move with it and blat, gun swings through. What goes wrong all the other times is that the target moves varying distances before you pick it up and your timing differs because of the different gun relationship. One thing it definitely isn't and that is being "muzzle aware". Only sporting shooters check the leed. On a good day you'll fire after 0.5 secs and as Jake says, you'll move on the flash and focus by the time the gun catches up. Your conscious mind has all the shooting ability of Albert Einstein, your subconscious the co-ordination of an eagle. Hone your gun to shoot where you look and you'll only be constrained by your eyesight.

 

[ips]

40up has, as allways nailed it.

Also worth saying as I have said on various other similar posts, is that as far as the focus point is concerned this is not as straight forward as one would expect as were to look is dependent on the discipline (too some degree) and the ground and the layout and the ever changing british light conditions. Just to confuse the issue further there are of course different methods to use such as staring at a specific object (blade of grass, clay fragment etc) untill soft focus is attained or a general higher soft focus or looking through the barrels (particularily usefull with high rib guns) So unfortunately its a difficult one to answer. I can only suggest that you try a few methods and see what works but the two things that I would say are paramount are .....

1- seing the target as a whole as soon as possible

2- be adaptable, in other words be prepared to read the situation and adapt accordingly which for instance might meen bringing your focus closer or further or higher depending on the conditions.

Furthermore the speed or rythm (or as we used to say in fencing "cadence") of gun mount / pre target routine I believe has a big effect on the shot. A slow but deliberate gun mount not only gives more time to attain the soft focus point required but also IMO subconciously causes a more controlled swing rather than an erratic stab at the target.

To conclude, if the answer to your very good question was as easy as it sounds like it should be, then we would all be able to put high and consistent scores in every week regardless of ground or layout or weather.

 

[Les53]

You know the feeling on the perfect shot when you pick up the target as it passes the end of the barrel, you move with it and blat, gun swings through. What goes wrong all the other times is that the target moves varying distances before you pick it up and your timing differs because of the different gun relationship. One thing it definitely isn't and that is being "muzzle aware". Only sporting shooters check the leed. On a good day you'll fire after 0.5 secs and as Jake says, you'll move on the flash and focus by the time the gun catches up. Your conscious mind has all the shooting ability of Albert Einstein, your subconscious the co-ordination of an eagle. Hone your gun to shoot where you look and you'll only be constrained by your eyesight.

What a great answer Fred!!!

 

[newbie]

40up has, as allways nailed it.

Also worth saying as I have said on various other similar posts, is that as far as the focus point is concerned this is not as straight forward as one would expect as were to look is dependent on the discipline (too some degree) and the ground and the layout and the ever changing british light conditions. Just to confuse the issue further there are of course different methods to use such as staring at a specific object (blade of grass, clay fragment etc) untill soft focus is attained or a general higher soft focus or looking through the barrels (particularily usefull with high rib guns) So unfortunately its a difficult one to answer. I can only suggest that you try a few methods and see what works but the two things that I would say are paramount are .....

1- seing the target as a whole as soon as possible

2- be adaptable, in other words be prepared to read the situation and adapt accordingly which for instance might meen bringing your focus closer or further or higher depending on the conditions.

Furthermore the speed or rythm (or as we used to say in fencing "cadence") of gun mount / pre target routine I believe has a big effect on the shot. A slow but deliberate gun mount not only gives more time to attain the soft focus point required but also IMO subconciously causes a more controlled swing rather than an erratic stab at the target.

To conclude, if the answer to your very good question was as easy as it sounds like it should be, then we would all be able to put high and consistent scores in every week regardless of ground or layout or weather.

fantastic response, thank you as this is very insightful.

a few questions on what you said... 

1. When you say there are several ways to get the desired focus (accept it is different for different people, layouts, light etc) either hard focus which then becomes a soft focus and then a more soft higher focus. Is the former a transition form hard to soft? (i cant seem to get this as my eyes start to dart about) . for the higher is this implying that you look into the distance and the only way to get this focus is to look higher and therefore into the distance?

2. when you 'look' do you focus (hard or soft) on a specific location and then you attention or gaze is more diverted to the peripheral regions? i.e. look at the bullseye on a dart board but you are actually looking and paying attention to the peripheral region in the lower quadrant of the board?

3. what other methods are there to get the desired focus?

I did some experimenting recently with visual pick up positions and seems i am not too sensitive to where i look (high or low) but higher you see the target better and longer but you need to adjust your style accordingly as you then tend to be overly aggressive in the swing or hold on too long.

the bit i am finding hard is the initial soft focus. if i stare hard i chase a flash. if i look at a small region (not a blade of grass type detail) and then concentrate on the peripheral region below its better but i feel like i am almost blurring my eyes to achieve the focus. i dont seem to consistently be able to replicate it. I had it dialled in a month ago and recently gone to pot and its costing me 4-6 birds per round.

 

[paul b]

i have just asked this question,in the phsycholigy section,mainly because i would like to cherry pick lots of answers to fix my bad trap shooting.

 

[newbie]

i have just asked this question,in the phsycholigy section,mainly because i would like to cherry pick lots of answers to fix my bad trap shooting.

Soory where exactly have you asked this?on mobileandcantsee it.

 

[ips]

well you have pretty much got all of that correct. i will try to remember your points as i type if i forget any i will edit them in. yes the general soft focus technique is generally a wider and higher soft focus this can work very well with a higher gun hold also however the down side is that a low or tight angle target can get out a fair way before you pick it up therefore you need to be nice and calm and avoid panic. the up side is that straight ish targets are easier due to less gun movement straight low ones and you need to be patient and let the target pass your barrels as 40 up refered to. the technique of staring at an object is quite difficult to master you need to stare at it and try to concentrate on the peripheral then your object will become softer focus and your general vision wider this can take what feels like a long time then you call for the target, its difficult to explain so apologies. looking through the barrel is exactly that you use a high gun hold but look down at the mark a very effective technique if you can master it. whatever method you use it seems to me that they all have there merits and downfalls so really depends on the day. of course us mere mortals have days when it works and days when it doesnt so i think its better to try a few things then pick a style that you like and stick with it but obviously adapt slightly as required. you could of course adopt my technique of not thinking of anything at all pre shot then just mounting gun and shooting at target. this is semi serious as a believe that there comes a time were your as well not fighting your natural style. when this happens it enables you too concentrate on seing the target which is by a very long way the most important aspect. all of the above is of course just my personal experience over nearly 30 yrs of trap and i am not a coach and am usually quite non conformist in most things so some may disagree with some of the above. hope that is of some help.

 

[newbie]

Ips, thank you. Truly excellent posts and very useful.

If I focus hard on something trying to achieve that elusive soft focus, my eyes really start to jump about and my thoughts become conscious. I have noticed that if a background is busy and cluttered e.g., bisley with broken clays I struggle as my eyes are drawn to items and I focus intensely on them and then the target goes unnoticed.

If I look at an area and then soft focus so that I am directing my attention to the trench below where I am actually looking it seems better but not too sure whether that's right or not...

 

[paul b]

Soory where exactly have you asked this?on mobileandcantsee it.

shooting sports phsycholigy,i would think mr coley would have some answers to this. 

 

[ips]

well with regards to your last comment, if it works for you then it is correct. sounds to me that you are hard focused on a spot and not allowing your peripheral vision to extend, sounds like your hard focus is remaining on the spot as i said this is not as easy a technique as it sounds try looking at an object in the room you are in now with your eyes fixed on that spot let your mind take in everything around Partictlarily to the extent ie far left and far right after 5 seconds or so your object should no longer be your prime focus however you will still see it. you will now be in a kind of trance lice state and this is the exact point to call for the target. this is really difficult for me to explain i hope it makes some sence. if this technique does not suit you then IMO you need to try a higher softer general focus on nothing specific. in fact to really go against general opinion you may want to try calling for the target as soon as the gun is shouldered you will have no time for distraction but pre shot routine and mount needs to be very slow as touched upon on my initial post. this is against all current teachings but works for some me included. watch alberto fernandez for extreme example on issf Australian Gp i think is best one

 

[newbie]

well with regards to your last comment, if it works for you then it is correct. sounds to me that you are hard focused on a spot and not allowing your peripheral vision to extend, sounds like your hard focus is remaining on the spot as i said this is not as easy a technique as it sounds try looking at an object in the room you are in now with your eyes fixed on that spot let your mind take in everything around Partictlarily to the extent ie far left and far right after 5 seconds or so your object should no longer be your prime focus however you will still see it. you will now be in a kind of trance lice state and this is the exact point to call for the target. this is really difficult for me to explain i hope it makes some sence. if this technique does not suit you then IMO you need to try a higher softer general focus on nothing specific. in fact to really go against general opinion you may want to try calling for the target as soon as the gun is shouldered you will have no time for distraction but pre shot routine and mount needs to be very slow as touched upon on my initial post. this is against all current teachings but works for some me included. watch alberto fernandez for extreme example on issf Australian Gp i think is best one

the wife now thinks i am nuts as i am staring out the wall....

thanks IPS, this is the most informative few posts I have ever read. Thank you.

 

[ips]

ha

hope your not now cross eyed.

as i say i am not a coach and no coach would tell you to try to shoot anything like fernandez but some of us have no patience and the concentration level of a guppy.

 

[psych4shooting]

shooting sports phsycholigy,i would think mr coley would have some answers to this. 

Newbie you know where I am and we can get to Southern Counties, shame you could not make the other date we had a great session on the OT.

 

[ips]

http://www.bunkershooting.com/tyro.html

Just found this the begining is a bit tedious but stick with it as it gets very good at explaining your initial question much better than I did (told you I wasnt a coach)

PS-just looked on cpsa and you are capable of some very good scores, but like the majority of us the odd low score thrown in. If you shoot all year regardless of the weather (as I do) then these low ones will happen. I dont think there can be much wrong with whatever your doing so dont change too much or you will dig a big hole, believe me I have been there. If like the majority of us you work during the week and prob have a family to look after then shooting consistantly every weekend is a problem we have to accept. Remember when you watch issf the majority if not all of the shooters we compare ourselves too are shooting many many times a week and are able to concentrate fully on there profession, and shooting in good weather with good light etc.

PPs -  I say again all of my above posts are only my opinions / experiences and I would not class myself as an "established OT shooter" or indeed a coach by any stretch of the imagination, just another keen ameteur. And I am sure there are more accomplished shooters better equiped to give advice.

 

[ips]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMFYSg07W8M

Alberto Fernadez at his best, proof that there really is no right and wrong way too shoot.

From 30-50 is particularily interesting commentary explaining the concept of this mount call shoot style.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Vigano is a legend. The best ever Italian shot IMHO.

The Vigano /Venturini the video they mentioned is brilliant. Worth watching.

Hakan was classic saying boco lupo to him.... :smile:

Of course strictly speaking it is 'in bocca al lupo' :laugh:

And there is an essential reply that is always said. :smile:

 

[Hamster]

Some of them appear to shoot, break the gun and then load a shell while waiting their turn for the next target, is this normal practice ?

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Yeap on any trap.

You shoot break gun and re-load.

Perfectly normal and no problem.

Only time you take cartridges out is when walking from 5 to 1.