828U Sport...circa 10k carts later

[Lloyd]

Like westley says, building a product that answers a question no one asked is not good business, especially if it's butt ugly and a lemon.

Hmmm... Can’t say I entirely agree with that observation to be honest.

Not saying the statement is wrong, but neither is it always the case that new ideas and new designs are bad business. Being a lemon though does make for hard work.

As Anthony Matarese Jr once said (in reference to shooting styles) “if you’re trying something new you’re gonna either turn out to be an innovator or an idiot”

Dick Fosbury was hailed an idiot until he started to make his “flop” work... now he’s recognised as an innovator.  

The company I work for has answered a question nobody asked and it’s getting traction in its market. To be fair, its core product started out butt ugly and a bit on the citric side. R&D has moved it away from that position and as the basic premise is based on sound physics the technology does indeed work despite early teething troubles. How that transition has been managed has been critical to the product and the company’s early successes.

I don’t recall anyone in 2006 asking for touchscreen “smartphones” but Apple asked themselves that question and what they gave us wasn’t (in my opinion) the most beautiful or even the most featured of phones.

The Fiat Multipla was arguably the ugliest car ever made, but it sold plenty.

My son actually likes the look of the 828U (I really don’t). Beauty as they say is in the eye of the beholder.

I won’t argue a product being a lemon is good business, but doesn’t mean a company cannot turn things around.

The question of industrial design and innovation isn’t so black and white in my experience.

If Bennelli get on top of their woes, they may just find themselves with a niche market that in time may grow to dominate. Strange things do happen

 

[Cosmicblue]

I genuinely admire Benelli for having the courage to create something new - and they have got really close to achieving that.   I'm less charitable to the fact that they didn't iron the bugs out with the result that the end-punter takes the hit in the pocket for inadequate product testing - Benelli and JLR have something in common.

 

[Westward]

I've no argument with genuine innovation and progress. My point is that trying to reinvent something that's already at or very near the limit of it's development and for which the market is very small, is unlikely to be successful. O/U shotguns are exactly such a marketplace. Just ask Browning (Cynergy) or Beretta (SV10).

Incremental improvements are a much better plan and one that worked well for Blaser and CG, but both companies identified price point gaps in the market before launching products.

 

[Lloyd]

@Westward

Ahh, indeed. I agree with your observation around price points. I’ve seen many a product fail in the market because the inventor/designer wanted to sell what they could build rather than build what they could sell.

As far as I’m aware, Blaser and CG both didn’t have easiest of starts with their new product introductions. In the case of Blaser, they seemed to act quickly and had good sense to make improvements by and large backward compatible. Not sure about CG history to be honest .

I have recently been checking out other guns. I was warned this would happen. I naively thought it wouldn’t happen to me. You see I’d like to believe I’m a rational individual, but apparently I am not!

One gun (will remain nameless) that has some innovation and fits into a price point; I found disappointing. For the money (2x F3 money) the finishing was well below my expectations. I’m glad in way though as the price is a bit eye watering for me. So, if (or maybe when) I do trade up, I rather think it will be an F3 for me.

 

[Will Hewland]

@Westward

Ahh, indeed. I agree with your observation around price points. I’ve seen many a product fail in the market because the inventor/designer wanted to sell what they could build rather than build what they could sell.

As far as I’m aware, Blaser and CG both didn’t have easiest of starts with their new product introductions. In the case of Blaser, they seemed to act quickly and had good sense to make improvements by and large backward compatible. Not sure about CG history to be honest .

I have recently been checking out other guns. I was warned this would happen. I naively thought it wouldn’t happen to me. You see I’d like to believe I’m a rational individual, but apparently I am not!

One gun (will remain nameless) that has some innovation and fits into a price point; I found disappointing. For the money (2x F3 money) the finishing was well below my expectations. I’m glad in way though as the price is a bit eye watering for me. So, if (or maybe when) I do trade up, I rather think it will be an F3 for me.

It’s very nice when you can find a gun you’re really happy with and then leave all the analysing in the past. Like you I came into this trying to think my way forward and it was a few years before I realised it was all about decluttering your distracted mind and gaining practice, once you become happy with the equipment you have. However, I only ever truly stopped having nagging doubts about the gun being spot on once I had found BLASER F3. EJ Churchill loaned me one kindly for two months before I bought my own. I had owned several brands, including three guns far more expensive than my F3. 

 

[Freddypip]

"One gun (will remain nameless) that has some innovation and fits into a price point; I found disappointing"

Why should it remain nameless ?.

The difficulty is starting from an assumption that the design must be innovative. There is then a tendency to question what for a long time has been best practice and more often than not that leads to a new (and steep) learning curve and failure rates. We do not look at guns like we do cars - no time of for servicing and new parts/repair. This is because the older designs are so reliable having gone through 40 or 50 years of development.

What surprised me with Benelli its that they didn't make something more conventional first.

I have not shot an SV10. My understand it was not a waste as a lot of the features then went into the 692 but I may be wrong.

 

[Lloyd]

@Freddypip

nameless because the finish I personally felt was poor. It’s subjective and each person to decide for themselves what standard they expect.

that and the fact I’m a coward!

 

[Westward]

I have not shot an SV10. My understand it was not a waste as a lot of the features then went into the 692 but I may be wrong.

You're right, the 692 is essentially an SV10 in disguise and in many respects the SVs were good guns. Handling and dynamics were really good, but they demonstrate that even a 500 year old company can make schoolboy errors. On it's release back about 2008/9 the SV10 III sporter in this country was at the same price point as the 682 Gold E. (?) Not a good start! Almost immediately, many developed problems with the selectable ejectors. Whilst they did issue a partial fix, which involved sending the gun back to GMK, the damage was done, the ejector problems were never fully solved and it was soon pretty much dead in the water, whereas the Gold E continued to sell well. The 692 was released too early and and many had quality control issues as well as the usual ejector niggles inherited in their entirety from the SV10. Of the 8 or 10 bought early on by people I know, all were moved on and usually quite quickly. Last year they finally fixed the 10 year old ejector problems by reverting to standard non switchable ones.

The SV10 grade I was more sensibly priced and I owned one for 3 years. When I traded it in the ejector 'O' rings were starting to fall apart. Not a big issue to change them but I was ready for a move up market and away from Beretta.

The 694 looks to be doing okay as Beretta seems to have finally remembered how to make shotguns that people will buy.

 

[Lloyd]

@Will Hewland

Thanks Will. Listening to experienced shots and referencing this against my own albeit limited experience, I concur with the view that I should limit the faffing about. So for me it’s now 1/2 & 1/2 chokes only. I’m still trying out cartridgeS, but honestly I can’t tell much difference, so I guess I’ll end up with something like Hill Sporting 100 or Gamebore Blue Diamond maybe. I’ve played about with LoP and have it where I’m comfortable and confident. I still feel that to keep my eye in line with the bead, I have to cram my face against the stock or roll my head. I’ve asked Ed Solomons to take a look into it next time we meet.

I tried B525, 725, 686, CG Summit and finally the F16 which I immediately felt comfortable with.  Do I then need to “trade up” to an F3? Probably not to be honest. I really can’t see it making me shoot any better, but I guess maybe I might “feel” better... you know... “all the gear and no idea” sort of thing. The F3 just gets me all lusty!

 

[Cosmicblue]

And now an F3 for me too....

 

[Will Hewland]

I thought the F16 seemed very good when I tried it. I had been loaned the F3 and just wanted to know that I hadn’t gone for the inferior gun (although I doubt it is). A caveat is the Blasers fit me pretty well, which they may not you..

 

[Lloyd]

@Will Hewland Being as “midget” according to Ed Solomons (the cheeky f***er) with a longish neck, low shoulders (sounding like a freak show exhibit) I haven’t found any gun that “fits” me.

I have shot right handed guns, guns with LoP an inch too long, comb way off and I generally manage. My F16 has be bodged into submission with 3D printed butt pad,  foam comb raiser and electrical tape to where I’m reasonably comfortable and to be fair, it’s made a small difference to my average I think.

Now I’m more or less done with tinkering, I’m not averse to a custom stock from Mr Ricciardo (I did get a UK stocker to quote and was 3x the price!)

I figure an ATA to put me on while I get started is worth no more than the tape, and a F16 warrants more permanent work, while an F3 definitely warrants a custom stock. I could just have a stock made by Blaser, it adds around £1,600 to the price, but then looking at some of the deals on off the shelf guns, I figure a right hander with a custom stock is pretty much the same money and gives me some future options.

Having said all this, when it finally boils down to it, I’m unlikely to pay much attention to all this rational and just go with my heart. After all, this is a hobby, not a business decision.

 

[westley]

eading all of the above this is a classic example of 'One size does NOT fit all '   !      I tried an F16 on a 100 bird layout, just after their launch. After 4 stands, I took it back into the shop, got out my Beretta 303 and carried on to shoot around 80%. I then went to another gun shop around a month later and was persuaded to try a 725 'black' (Yeah, yeah, yeah,  the things that rust away before you get it home). I tried it out on 2 stands at the rear of the shop and dropped 2 ex 30. I bought THAT gun. (after some persuasion as it was the demo gun). Now 4 years down the line (so to speak) I have been persuaded to sell my beloved 725. I had some stock work done and had added a couple of extra chokes and done some work to enhance the woodwork. I sold it to someone who knew the gun and it's history (and it's condition). I had looked at (but NOT tried) an F3 and a Perazzi, but due to my Elton John hands, neither suited me without some major surgery on the stocks. In fact the F3 was bought by a chap that shoots at my local ground and he is hitting everything with it (including an edge on barn door  ! ) Mind you he is around 6' 12"  and built like a brick thingy  !  I in turn,  settled on a new 525 XS Pro (my second NEW gun in over 60 years). Picked it up last Tuesday, shot it on Wednesday and apart from changing to the thinner recoil pad, it was straight out of the box. I managed over 75% at the local ground, so with a bit of practice, I hope to improve on that. For me the 525 is the perfect gun, I can raise the stock comb, extend or shorten the stock to fit, balance the thing to be muzzle or stock heavy and have 8 chokes to fiddle with between stands  !  In fact it is a 'Fiddlers Dream'  !  Shame that I have put all of those bits in the box, ordered another 1/4 choke and THAT will be it. I will just shoot and enjoy it.

Having just read Lloyd's post, all that I would add, is,  that I shoot mainly 'gun down' but over 60 years of practice and only EVER having one gun professionally fitted (a Westley Richards S x S ) I think I have perfected my gun mounting. I also bought myself a used Geezer Cearini 20 bore with 32" barrels, just in case I am FORCED into using steel shot next season. I tried it out over 4 stands, 4 pairs on each and dropped 2. Again, I knew that gun would 'fit' me whilst still in the shop.

 

[Cosmicblue]

Having said all this, when it finally boils down to it, I’m unlikely to pay much attention to all this rational and just go with my heart. After all, this is a hobby, not a business decision.

Totally agree Lloyd.

 

[Shamrock]

Reading all of the above this is a classic example of 'One size does NOT fit all '   !      I tried an F16 on a 100 bird layout, just after their launch. After 4 stands, I took it back into the shop, got out my Beretta 303 and carried on to shoot around 80%. I then went to another gun shop around a month later and was persuaded to try a 725 'black' (Yeah, yeah, yeah,  the things that rust away before you get it home). I tried it out on 2 stands at the rear of the shop and dropped 2 ex 30. I bought THAT gun. (after some persuasion as it was the demo gun). Now 4 years down the line (so to speak) I have been persuaded to sell my beloved 725. I had some stock work done and had added a couple of extra chokes and done some work to enhance the woodwork. I sold it to someone who knew the gun and it's history (and it's condition). I had looked at (but NOT tried) an F3 and a Perazzi, but due to my Elton John hands, neither suited me without some major surgery on the stocks. In fact the F3 was bought by a chap that shoots at my local ground and he is hitting everything with it (including an edge on barn door  ! ) Mind you he is around 6' 12"  and built like a brick thingy  !  I in turn,  settled on a new 525 XS Pro (my second NEW gun in over 60 years). Picked it up last Tuesday, shot it on Wednesday and apart from changing to the thinner recoil pad, it was straight out of the box. I managed over 75% at the local ground, so with a bit of practice, I hope to improve on that. For me the 525 is the perfect gun, I can raise the stock comb, extend or shorten the stock to fit, balance the thing to be muzzle or stock heavy and have 8 chokes to fiddle with between stands  !  In fact it is a 'Fiddlers Dream'  !  Shame that I have put all of those bits in the box, ordered another 1/4 choke and THAT will be it. I will just shoot and enjoy it.

Having just read Lloyd's post, all that I would add, is,  that I shoot mainly 'gun down' but over 60 years of practice and only EVER having one gun professionally fitted (a Westley Richards S x S ) I think I have perfected my gun mounting. I also bought myself a used Geezer Cearini 20 bore with 32" barrels, just in case I am FORCED into using steel shot next season. I tried it out over 4 stands, 4 pairs on each and dropped 2. Again, I knew that gun would 'fit' me whilst still in the shop.

Great post, thanks.