Alternative to Cast

[Richard59]

Whilst a fully fitted gun will not lead to greatness, having a poorly fitting gun ( me probably two ) will, in most cases hamper ones shooting. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

I make the eventual trip to Manuel Ricardo next year.

So you want to make a couple of flights, pay for accommodation etc to have a stock made in Portugal. Fine if you are having a holiday but .... there must be some pretty decent stockers in England who could do that work for you? I know a guy here who had a MR stock made a couple of years back... used it for about a season and then took it off because it did not fit him and the cost of having the stock altered would mean either a revisit or paying a stocker in France to do the work... both situations meaning an extra costs. The problem having stocks made by well known stockers abroad is the costs involved in travel and accommodation and if you get back home and find out, as many do, the stock is not quite right you have to shell out to have it sorted out. I know three people who have had stocks made for them abroad and none of them actually were happy with the stock once they had a real chance to shoot it.

Getting back to what shooters will and will not find amusing when they have just paid £3000 + for a inexpensive off the shelf new gun... well one of them that would not be is shelling for a fitted stock. This is of course why so many manufacturers offer a factory fitted adjustable comb. They know that the amount of adjustment available is enough to make the gun acceptable for most of the people who will buy this type of gun. Even makers of what one may consider a more costly gun offer these, Perazzi for example... who will make you a made to measure stock at no extra cost will still offer that as well.

Edit

In real terms the cheapest part of a shooters apparel over their shooting life is their shotgun! All the more reason to actually buy a decent gun in the first place... what constitutes a decent gun? I am just off to buy a giant bag of popcorn :lol:

 

[Wonko the Sane]

 I am just off to buy a giant bag of popcorn :lol:

a really excellent idea

 

[Luke_(NL)]

It may be of note one of the greatest ever shotgun shooters uses an adjustable stock and Vincent Hancock is no monkey you will see his gun glide effortlessly to his face!

Is it me or is Vincent's stock hardly even on his shoulder on the first shot before recoil puts it there? Not meaning to cause any thread drift, so on topic, wouldn't the combination of an adjustable comb and an adjustable butt-plate allow one to replicate all that bending a stock could achieve?  

 

[jwpzx9r]

Is it me or is Vincent's stock hardly even on his shoulder on the first shot before recoil puts it there? Not meaning to cause any thread drift, so on topic, wouldn't the combination of an adjustable comb and an adjustable butt-plate allow one to replicate all that bending a stock could achieve?  

Yes it could be ... but remember he is shooting Olympic Skeet and I doubt  the man at the very top of the tree  let alone anybody else actually pull off the perfect mount every time. He brought the gun up and probably just shot the target because he had to?

 

[Lloyd]

Despite my di... mucking about with stock mods of late, I’m not convinced gun fit is the be all and end all of shooting performance. The best can shoot anything. There’s plenty of anecdotes and folklore to support that theory as I’m sure there are plenty of folks with a perfectly fitted stock with a score average increase of a clay or two. I’m pretty certain I’m in the latter category. In fact I could be in a whole new category of shooters whose score halves. 

Seems lately I’ve been shooting like a blind pi$$ head on a stag do!

So, breaking the fit down, foremost would be where the eye sits relative to the rib. Now it could be high, it could be low, it could even be offset, but I’m sure you could get used to it in time.  Then there’s how it fits in the shoulder pocket. Could be high, could be low  both shown by various shooters works.  I saw Mickey Rouse break two clays with one shell with his stock so low I feared his fathering days would be over quite soon.

The bit of wood between the butt pad and the action will put the rib where it will go. It may help if said wood is shaped such that one could use their facial features to gauge where to put eye. I suppose it could be nose, teeth, chin but folks better versed than me in stock fitting figured the side of ones mush would be a reasonable bet. It could be helpful and certainly I would concur being the lazy mardy bum that I am with the notion that having a comfortable place to rest ones hand while waiting to squeeze the trigger is a good idea also.  
 

some wood in between to join all the bits together isn’t a bad idea, though you could use aluminium (not aloominum), carbon fibre, or for absolute strength, dried wheatabix.

This reminds me of the importance of having the right chokes. I recall one competitor with notable achievement telling a tale of a shoot off where they  were trying to decide between keeping the 1/2 chokes already in the gun, decided to swap out for 3/4. Later that day, said competitor after winning the shoot off realised they had mistakenly put in 1/4 chokes and this concluded chokes don’t matter so much. Said competitor, with a known relationship with a choke manufacturer declared that chokes should be matched to the gun because the bores of a gun would likely not be exactly as specified due to manufacturing tolerances. Now with an standard 18,5mm bore, or an over-bore of say 18.7mm I doubt any manufacturer worth their salt making guns costing more than £500 would see a variation of plus or minus 0.05mm. So that 1/4 mistaken for a 3/4 has a tenfold difference, but having chokes carefully match is a must for any serious shooter apparently! Seriously? Well, I’ve seen snake oil salesman in my time but that takes the biscuit and I really don’t care who it is making such claims  it’s so contradictory it’s ridiculous.

so, I enjoy the tinkering with stocks and such, but if I’m missing it’s me doing the missing.  In fact I was hitting more with an incorrect stock than my corrected one.

or maybe I’m just cynical

 

[Luke_(NL)]

@jwpzx9r True. And I certainly am not one to fault the man. Just caught my eye, with the video called "his perfect shot" and all.

Well fitting standard stock or not (I'm considering going the fitted way eventually, but won't rule out ergosign or similar) Olympic skeet catches me off kilter a lot more often than it does VH. Getting into it though. I had to since having heard sporting skeet called "baby skeet", and English (pre mounted) skeet, well, let's say "choice words".  

I wonder if a fitted stock will do the wonders that have been alleged, although I think I could benefit from a fitted grip mostly as I am mucking about with my right hand grip. 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Seems lately I’ve been shooting like a blind pi$$ head on a stag do!

Find one of Michael Yardley's discourses on gun fitting.  He tells the simple truths.  Do as he says.  And then quit whining and STFU    :lolu:

 

[Lloyd]

@Wonko the Sane 

If I could do as Mike Yardley does I’d have nothing to whine about and you’d have nothing to laugh about. Seriously though, I have read Mike Yardley’s articles and book on gun fitting and Rollin Oswald et.al

If all I needed to do was read books to get a good gun fit and shoot like an ace, then I’d be world champion (and a part time neurosurgeon) and so would many others with adequate literacy.

When one experts simple truth is another experts BS, for mere mortals such as I, well, I could become confused (I’m not).

I have never suffered fools gladly. Such as the aforementioned expert on chokes. A person clearly filled to the brim with BS. Oh sure, there’s always a modicum  of truth running through all the snake oil salesmen and even those who give their snake oil away for free   In fact most snake oil salesmen have utterly convinced themselves of “the simple truths” if not any others. 

Sadly, both you and I know and I’m quite sure many others do also, it isn’t a simple matter of reading, or getting a coach, or practice, or talent or some trick bit of kit. It’s all of those things and then some. 
 

I have mentioned that I’m but mere a novice, but perhaps I forgot to mention I’m not an idiot. Though I must say I do a damned good impression of one most the time. 
 

I have never really censor myself very much and few folks have managed to do it for me either. You know... First Amendment n all that!

So it seems highly unlikely I’ll STFU any time soon

 

[Salopian]

Lloyd ,

 Do you actually have a shot gun certificate and actually own a gun?

 

[timps]

The way I see it is a custom stock is to aid with a consistent sight picture the shooter likes. Some shooters can consistently mount a gun with a stock shaped like an old broom therefore any custom stock fitting is superfluous.

Some shooters really struggle and a stock that is designed to make them mount in a certain way to get a consistent sight picture is a big benefit.

Then there are shooters like me, I can mount a gun of any stock  and shoot it to reasonable scores ( for me that is) but I will over the course of a season fluff a few mounts up costing me clays. Therefore a custom stock won’t give me a new PB but will aid on a day I’m a bit sloppy.

The trouble with custom stocks is there are plenty of so called experts out there, ask 10 of them what the ideal set up is and get 10 different answers. I have seen people go and get a stock made without the stocker ever seeing them shoot. Yes the wood work has been exemplary, however muzzle flip, recoil issues and mounting the gun different when confronted with a moving clay rather than stood still in a shop have forced the shooter to shoot worse with this so called custom stock.

I  have bought adjustable stock guns for many years as I like to see a little more rib, the only reason was years ago I caught myself lifting my head randomly on some targets and a little more comb height cured me. I didn’t start smashing my PB but I was a little more consistent.

But this did attract the resident local badged up sleet vest belongs to every shooting organisation shooting instructor telling me my comb was too high without seeing me even shoot or mount the gun. This was right before a members comp at my local club, I politely declined his hour long gun fit session which for some reason really irked him to the point it was getting nasty.

After the shoot back at the club house his score 67 mine 93 (yes it was a soft club shoot) really irked me as this idiot had me questioning my own gun fit whilst I was shooting that comp when he should have been more concerned with his own ability.

So I do think new shooters such as Lloyd should question advice and opinions as there is so much rubbish spoken about clay shooting even by amazing shots or those that think they are. 

Regarding gun fit if you know what you want it can be a pleasurable experience working with the stocker, if not let’s just hope you’ve got a knowledgeable one and not egotistical self import one as it is a minefield  out there.

just my take on it anyway.

 

[ChrisPackham]

By way of update, I spent a fascinating hour with a very well recommended stocker close to home which has lead to the face of the comb being flattened (weirdly it was convex and when viewed from above the stick was oval) and a little taken off to give me the sight picture at mount that i wanted, i will try this for a couple of weeks and then go back for final finish and re-oil.

Technostocks are amazing this and if i shot clays in anger then i would consider one but all but one of my guns are game guns and so wood is always going to be my preference.

Having pissed around with every possible variable over the last 6 years I am convinced that gunfit and balance are essential to me shooting as well as i would like, however 85% of my shooting is on game which as we know relies on a  more instinctive and reactive style (purposely avoided the phrase 'technique' as that wouldn't apply to me)

 

[Lloyd]

Lloyd ,

 Do you actually have a shot gun certificate and actually own a gun?

First question answer, No

Second question answer. Yes

 

[Lloyd]

@timps FWIW I had a three hour session with Ed Solomons today at Sporting Targets and he echoed pretty much what you’re saying. 
Ed thought in his opinion the stock was still too long and not enough cast. We took the butt pad off and shot some incommers and going away. At first I thought I’d missed as I saw no fragments of a clay. Ed confirmed the kills. 1/4 choke broken clay. 1/2 choke clay vanished. Point of aim and point of impact confirmed.

Ed re-instilled some key behaviours and I did my best shooting ever. Didn’t keep score but Ed’s estimate was between 70-80% kills. Nothing too taxing mind. Furthest Clay was a R-L looper about 45-50 yards out according to Ed, good wide open space and not especially quick.
I’m happy again. Not that I was ever really sad anyway. 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

If I could do as Mike Yardley does I’d have nothing to whine about and you’d have nothing to laugh about. Seriously though, I have read Mike Yardley’s articles and book on gun fitting and Rollin Oswald et.al

If all I needed to do was read books to get a good gun fit and shoot like an ace, then I’d be world champion (and a part time neurosurgeon) and so would many others with adequate literacy.

That's step #1

Step #2 is to do as they say.

I have no idea what Rollin has to say but MY speaks the truth AFAIC

 

[Lloyd]

That's step #1

Step #2 is to do as they say.

I have no idea what Rollin has to say but MY speaks the truth AFAIC

My dad used to say the “proof is in the pudding not the recipe”

 

[timps]

@Lloyd I have shot with Ed a few times and watched him coach a mate in an informal freebie. He certainly knows his stuff and backs it up with good communication skills. IMO if Ed couldn’t help you with coaching then I’d give up trying to find a coach

Nothing better than coming away from a days shooting knowing you’ve improved and learnt something.