Bead or no Bead?
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Gil you are quite right. Joan Vickers in her book 'The Quiet Eye' details how the elite sports person learns to prioritise what they look at from a vast moving landscape. On a national team, some members are better than others at doing this and this is what splits them off as elite.
Take ice-hockey ....the movement of the puck, the swinging of sticks, the scraping of ice etc etc....all in a fast moving scene.
The elite player knows how to keep the focus on one thing without looking back and forward to the distractions.
Take ice-hockey ....the movement of the puck, the swinging of sticks, the scraping of ice etc etc....all in a fast moving scene.
The elite player knows how to keep the focus on one thing without looking back and forward to the distractions.
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No Salop. I was agreeing and then adding something else.
You should be used to my random thoughts and comparisons by now :smiles:
You should be used to my random thoughts and comparisons by now :smiles:
EdLyons
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Agreed Nicola, an excerpt reads:
"Of all the gaze within the scan path in golf (fixations, saccades, pursuit tracking) to all locations (ball, club, hole, green), only one has emerged as an indicator of both higher levels of skill and accuracy, and that is the final fixation on the ball prior to the backswing (Vickers, 1992; Vickers, 2004; Vickers, Morton, & Panchuk, in progress) golfers with handicaps below 4 have a mean quiet-eye duration of 2 s, while those with handicaps above 14 average 1.5s"
We know this translates to shotgunning with smooth tracking and focus ("hard" focus or "soft" focus is a moot point) on the leading edge of the clay key.
Gil, this leads (s'cuse the pun!) nicely into discussing your 95/5 Focus Ratio.
Clever made a lengthy list on "reasons we miss" Gil, care to address those?
Ed
jake.keeling
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EdLyons
Well-known member
Not sure it translates to gazing at front edge of clay. I think it translates to gazing at pick up point or a blade of grass or stone in Trap shooting.
I agree there should be a "stillness" on those pick up points/blades/stones etc but I am convinced there is also going to be the same "dynamic stillness" if you excuse the phrase, when it comes down to target tracking and I think these timings would be statistically significant when comparing good, better and best shooters.
We have a static target vs a very rapidly moving target so hugely different visual requirements and thus the quiet eye phases would be far shorter. It would be really interesting to map it with the same set up JV used...
I agree there should be a "stillness" on those pick up points/blades/stones etc but I am convinced there is also going to be the same "dynamic stillness" if you excuse the phrase, when it comes down to target tracking and I think these timings would be statistically significant when comparing good, better and best shooters.
We have a static target vs a very rapidly moving target so hugely different visual requirements and thus the quiet eye phases would be far shorter. It would be really interesting to map it with the same set up JV used...
Gil Ash
Well-known member
lets explore what creates a miss for you? getting cautious or careful....moving to fast??checking the lead??? missing the mount....what are your common causes for missing a target....raising the head??/slowing the gun....stopping the gun.....have you ever had a shot where it looked right but did not break?...what happens to your grip pressure when you are under stress....lets talk about why you miss a target that you know how to hit.....we have found the common thread is fear.....fear of missing ......when fear enters the computer the muzzle comes between the target and the eyes.......so why do you miss.....we would suggest that for most it is not a varying list of reasons but one or two stubborn things that keep coming back to haunt you when the pressure is on.....never know just talking about them might help you eliminate them....its all research to us....will ck back in this pm.....
Gil Ash
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will be talking about focus ratio later on today Ed......we are finding that sliding focus ratios are at the root cause for the "unexplained" misses that shooters world wide attribute to "mental problems"....this is going to be exciting and fun.....gotta go pull the trigger now....sighting in the Shotkam on my K-20 for some pheasant kill shots tomorrow for the new web site.....later...Guinness tonight Ed.... looks like you started something.....regds...oh and btw will try to remember to read posts before posting in future....Where is Cleavers list....gotta go....gotta go....later
ips
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This quiet eye and focus point etc is a very complex thing and I would assume differes to a degree for every shooter and also between disciplines. Personally I consider that whatever method you use (ie staring at a specific object or a general soft focus at a given distance or height) for trap that "seing" the target as soon as it exits the trap is paramount. This might sound pretty obvious however too high a focus or indeed too close a focus or just calling for the target before you are mentally ready and the target will get the slip on you and will have travelled a fair distance before you are able to ascertain its trajectory correctly. This I believe causes a panic, and consequently a far from flowing and controlled swing. The trouble is that every ground and every trap is different therefore one cannot neccasarily adopt the same system all the time. The ability too read the trap on the day and adopt the correct hold point / focus point is what seperates good shooters from excellent and consistent shooters.
As is usually the case with these things I do not believe that there is neccasarily a right or wrong method.
As is usually the case with these things I do not believe that there is neccasarily a right or wrong method.
Gil Ash
Well-known member
well here goes.....our research has uncovered something that has certainly explained a lot of why all shooters struggle at certain levels and then move on to higher and higher levels of performance.....we have stumbled onto what we feel is the underlying reason why shooters get stuck at certain plateaus and just cant seem to go higher....it has to do with a 4 letter word ..... fear....the instant a shooter lets fear come into their game for what ever reason the muzzles come back to the bird....fear puts the muzzles between the eyes and the target.....let me explain.....when the eagle chases two rabbits both go free......
1 2 3
lets see where your eyes really are when looking at the lead.....in the above line of numbers....focus on the 1.....now focus on the 3 ......now focus on the 1 & 3 at the same time......because you can only focus on one thing at a time you will find yourself looking at the 2 when focusing on the 1 & 3 simultaneously ......we call this a 50/50 focus ratio
1 2 3.....this would be a 75/25 ratio with 1 being the bird and 3 the gun..
1 2 3......this would be a 90/10 ratio
1 2 3....this would be what we would call 95/5 and what we have found to be ideal.....eyes on the front of the clay....
what we have found is that a persons score on 100 targets is equal to their average focus ratio on all 100 targets......hold on I'm getting there....dont get your knickers in a knot....practicing my british......there will be certain targets that you have hit hundreds of times and as you step into the stand there is no fear of missing and the targets are launched and you run the station with a focus ratio of 98/2....and same on the next station with a ratio of 95/5.....but now on the next stand there are targets that you had a miserable time with at your last practice and at the last tourney or for what ever reason your confidence was shaken on this pair...where does your focus go....what is the first thought????.....does that voice in your head say just look hard at the target and let it happen or does it want to know what the lead is....????????????????
the more you want to know about the lead the more the focus ratio goes toward the gun.....now be honest with yourself.....It does go to the lead doesn't it....and when it goes to the lead it is really going to the gun isn't it.....now come on be honest.....and with a different amount of confidence on each station based on your experience and attitude guess what you will have .......a different focus ratio on different targets.....we call this a sliding focus ratio.....sliding ratios are not good....if you average all your focus ratios together on all 100 targets you will find that average to be equal to your score....
the ah ha for us was the way it always shifts due to fear.......toward the gun.....the first place we see this is in the hold point....it moves back to the trap insuring that the target will beat you when it is thrown and thus putting you behind the target which means that the gun must now move faster than the target to get ahead and what do you think does to your focus ratio....the eyes always go to the fastest thing in the picture....guess what that is in this instance????????????
at the end of the day it is the retina that actually anticipates the targets line and speed (the lead) and that data is then given to the subconscious brain in a continuing stream of constantly updated information as long as the shooter is focused on the target....it is the quality of the focus that determines the preciseness of the out put.....the out put of the information loop are the hands and the gun.....as long as the focus in on the target and a focus ratio of 95/5 or higher the shooter has a better than average shot at hitting the target.....however
the fear of missing pulls that ratio back to the 50/50 mark....why 95/5 and not 100% on the target....you cant do that for 100 targets....what we find is that shooters trying to maintain 100% on the target are really trying to "not look at the gun"....so tell me....how do you visualize not looking at the gun??????you can t not do something and the harder you try to not see the barrel guess what....hello sliding focus ratios....all great shooters have a small awareness of the barrel and they have via experience come to grips with just how much they personally get away with by becoming careful and trying to protect a lead or shoot a really good score....
you cant visualize not seeing the gun but you can visualize what it will look like as the gun inserts in front of the target and is moving the same speed as the target......dont include the lead though or your focus ratio might just slide.......we find that to be able to visualize what it will look like when the gun inserts in front of the target is very valuable.....right handed shooter on left to right target at point of insertion the shooter will be looking at the target behind the gun which will place his eyes to the left of the muzzle....right handed shooter on the right to left target at point of insertion will be looking at the target behind the gun and will be looking ACROSS THE MUZZLES AT THE TARGET.... to know what the real picture will look like allows for you to visualize what it will look like enabling you to ACCEPT THE MUZZLES AS THEY COME INTO THE PICTURE and maintain a high focus ratio....by far the biggest win in this situation is that your visualization will become your reality as you shoot and at that point you begin to double dip in the performance pool and you focus ratios become more consistent ad guess what happens to your scores.....and confidence?????...fingers are tired.....will try to address causes for missing if I can find the post and time later on today....cheers.....BTW....if you go shooting this week end be aware of your focus ratios and which way they shift and why......you will be amazed......
1 2 3
lets see where your eyes really are when looking at the lead.....in the above line of numbers....focus on the 1.....now focus on the 3 ......now focus on the 1 & 3 at the same time......because you can only focus on one thing at a time you will find yourself looking at the 2 when focusing on the 1 & 3 simultaneously ......we call this a 50/50 focus ratio
1 2 3.....this would be a 75/25 ratio with 1 being the bird and 3 the gun..
1 2 3......this would be a 90/10 ratio
1 2 3....this would be what we would call 95/5 and what we have found to be ideal.....eyes on the front of the clay....
what we have found is that a persons score on 100 targets is equal to their average focus ratio on all 100 targets......hold on I'm getting there....dont get your knickers in a knot....practicing my british......there will be certain targets that you have hit hundreds of times and as you step into the stand there is no fear of missing and the targets are launched and you run the station with a focus ratio of 98/2....and same on the next station with a ratio of 95/5.....but now on the next stand there are targets that you had a miserable time with at your last practice and at the last tourney or for what ever reason your confidence was shaken on this pair...where does your focus go....what is the first thought????.....does that voice in your head say just look hard at the target and let it happen or does it want to know what the lead is....????????????????
the more you want to know about the lead the more the focus ratio goes toward the gun.....now be honest with yourself.....It does go to the lead doesn't it....and when it goes to the lead it is really going to the gun isn't it.....now come on be honest.....and with a different amount of confidence on each station based on your experience and attitude guess what you will have .......a different focus ratio on different targets.....we call this a sliding focus ratio.....sliding ratios are not good....if you average all your focus ratios together on all 100 targets you will find that average to be equal to your score....
the ah ha for us was the way it always shifts due to fear.......toward the gun.....the first place we see this is in the hold point....it moves back to the trap insuring that the target will beat you when it is thrown and thus putting you behind the target which means that the gun must now move faster than the target to get ahead and what do you think does to your focus ratio....the eyes always go to the fastest thing in the picture....guess what that is in this instance????????????
at the end of the day it is the retina that actually anticipates the targets line and speed (the lead) and that data is then given to the subconscious brain in a continuing stream of constantly updated information as long as the shooter is focused on the target....it is the quality of the focus that determines the preciseness of the out put.....the out put of the information loop are the hands and the gun.....as long as the focus in on the target and a focus ratio of 95/5 or higher the shooter has a better than average shot at hitting the target.....however
the fear of missing pulls that ratio back to the 50/50 mark....why 95/5 and not 100% on the target....you cant do that for 100 targets....what we find is that shooters trying to maintain 100% on the target are really trying to "not look at the gun"....so tell me....how do you visualize not looking at the gun??????you can t not do something and the harder you try to not see the barrel guess what....hello sliding focus ratios....all great shooters have a small awareness of the barrel and they have via experience come to grips with just how much they personally get away with by becoming careful and trying to protect a lead or shoot a really good score....
you cant visualize not seeing the gun but you can visualize what it will look like as the gun inserts in front of the target and is moving the same speed as the target......dont include the lead though or your focus ratio might just slide.......we find that to be able to visualize what it will look like when the gun inserts in front of the target is very valuable.....right handed shooter on left to right target at point of insertion the shooter will be looking at the target behind the gun which will place his eyes to the left of the muzzle....right handed shooter on the right to left target at point of insertion will be looking at the target behind the gun and will be looking ACROSS THE MUZZLES AT THE TARGET.... to know what the real picture will look like allows for you to visualize what it will look like enabling you to ACCEPT THE MUZZLES AS THEY COME INTO THE PICTURE and maintain a high focus ratio....by far the biggest win in this situation is that your visualization will become your reality as you shoot and at that point you begin to double dip in the performance pool and you focus ratios become more consistent ad guess what happens to your scores.....and confidence?????...fingers are tired.....will try to address causes for missing if I can find the post and time later on today....cheers.....BTW....if you go shooting this week end be aware of your focus ratios and which way they shift and why......you will be amazed......
You've put so much effort into this Gil that it deserves to be read, digested and tried. Let's see what Sunday brings. :wizard:
ips
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Wow. I have to admit that i got a bit confused in middle of that or possibly at the Beghning however ithink what your saying in a very scientific way is what i and many have said on various posts before and that is. Focus totally on the target and trust your ability. Be confident and fully Commit to the shot. Forget the barrels or muzzle or bead whatever you want to call it. Above all as far as ot is concerned the absolute primary focus must be to see the target as a whole target as soon as possible. At least that is what i think yet said but math was never my strong point 
Yep that looks about it I reckon Ian! Focus only on the target and don't let the concious brain take over! :good:Wow. I have to admit that i got a bit confused in middle of that or possibly at the Beghning however ithink what your saying in a very scientific way is what i and many have said on various posts before and that is. Focus totally on the target and trust your ability. Be confident and fully Commit to the shot. Forget the barrels or muzzle or bead whatever you want to call it. Above all as far as ot is concerned the absolute primary focus must be to see the target as a whole target as soon as possible. At least that is what i think yet said but math was never my strong point
Will Hewland
Well-known member
Yes...
If you can read and understand all that you are too clever to be shooting! Only kidding, sort of..
I think any such long explanations are for the practice ground with the coach present. A lot to fill your head with for just reading and trying. As the two posters above did, break it down into a simple message for 'top-tip' of the day. You can't be coached effectively on a forum IMO..
I still don't agree with muzzle focus being such a prolific problem for all. Agreed, big issue for some and almost always an issue for beginners, but it is not the explanation for all misses. If only life were that simple..
If you can read and understand all that you are too clever to be shooting! Only kidding, sort of..
I think any such long explanations are for the practice ground with the coach present. A lot to fill your head with for just reading and trying. As the two posters above did, break it down into a simple message for 'top-tip' of the day. You can't be coached effectively on a forum IMO..
I still don't agree with muzzle focus being such a prolific problem for all. Agreed, big issue for some and almost always an issue for beginners, but it is not the explanation for all misses. If only life were that simple..
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ips
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Not trying to be negative but just read it again and i am sorry gil but i think Mr clever is right i do not think that mere mortals can interpret that without face to face explanation. I would not be so bold as to criticize the theory but hell thats heavy man.
Wow i turned American then
Wow i turned American then
I was once (many moons ago) coached by an Italian trap shooter, he always used to say "see it, shoot it". It works for me, but it is murder for a coach who is trying sort me out if I have a problem though! Well unless that coach also uses such a method, luckily quite a few do! :hunter:
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Yeee Haa!!!!Not trying to be negative but just read it again and i am sorry gil but i think Mr clever is right i do not think that mere mortals can interpret that without face to face explanation. I would not be so bold as to criticize the theory but hell thats heavy man.
Wow i turned American then
ips
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Clever
i agree in fact if you remember i started a post on this very topic ie if we were more aware of the bead barrel whatever than we think of are and i have paid particular attention to this since and i think that we do sub conciously see the bead but only at the moment the target and bead merge which to me makes sence as the two must be in sight at some point otherwise you would miss. Watching some shooters it is quite obvious that they are using more of a deliberate aim technique rather than what we consider to be more of an instinctive shot. I repeat what i have said in the past i dont think we neccasarily do what we think we do.
A very interesting topic this.
i agree in fact if you remember i started a post on this very topic ie if we were more aware of the bead barrel whatever than we think of are and i have paid particular attention to this since and i think that we do sub conciously see the bead but only at the moment the target and bead merge which to me makes sence as the two must be in sight at some point otherwise you would miss. Watching some shooters it is quite obvious that they are using more of a deliberate aim technique rather than what we consider to be more of an instinctive shot. I repeat what i have said in the past i dont think we neccasarily do what we think we do.
A very interesting topic this.
