Beretta 694 barrel regulation - can it be adjusted?

[cheeko]

Looking at a Beretta 694 but the barrel regulation is off.
It's a fixed choke model for trap.
Top barrel (IM) hits low >4" and right > 4" at 25 yards from a bench rest.
Bottom barrel (FULL), hits low >6" and left ~2" at 25 yards.
Shot both at 40 yards as well, of course the result is amplified even more so.
Can this be resolved or should this gun be used for stoking the firepit?

 

[Call_me_Tom]

I won’t say unregulated Beretta barrels are common but they aren’t unheard of in the US. Your only recourse is to send the gun to Beretta and hope that they fix the issue. I’ve no personal experience but from what I’ve read Beretta usually replies to the gun owner that the barrels are within Beretta’s specifications and does nothing.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

Out of curiosity, how did you test this? A couple of questions come to mind:
-Was the gun fixed on the benchrest?
-How was point of aim determined?
-How many shells through each barrel?

The low 4" vs low 6" doesn't put me off that much, as there is an inch between the center of bore already and shot velocity isn't without variation. The left vs right sway would be a problem. Does this also show when you put one of those laser-cartridges in each barrel?

 

[cheeko]

Out of curiosity, how did you test this? A couple of questions come to mind:
-Was the gun fixed on the benchrest?
-How was point of aim determined?
-How many shells through each barrel?

The low 4" vs low 6" doesn't put me off that much, as there is an inch between the center of bore already and shot velocity isn't without variation. The left vs right sway would be a problem. Does this also show when you put one of those laser-cartridges in each barrel?

The amount of variation I posted may be a little low , both up/down and left/right.
I can dig up the test results from 25 yards.

Anyway, indoor range.
1" diameter bull drawn on 2' x 3' paper, 25 yards away.
From a bench with forend on padded rest.

Looking directly along the rib, from back of receiver.
There is no midbead.
POA determined by placing front bead in center of, or just under, the bull.
At least 6 shots from each barrel.

Then from 40 yards at outdoor range.
Shooting from elbows, same POA determination less the bench rest.

And yes, even from 13 yards with a laser boresight, there is noticeable POI differeences barrel to barrel.
Thank you, appreciate any thoughts.
P.S. No noticeable POI issues, same tests, with a Browning 725 and even a Canuck Combo.

 

[Freddypip]

To answer the original question, TGS have done a video at Beretta and I think, from memory, the barrels use hard solder so its very hard to remove the rib and (re)regulate them and if its going to be done it needs a trip back to Beretta (and their very hot factory). I doubt any UK gunsmith would touch them. Do watch the video however in case I have got this wrong.

The 2 inches out (up & down) at 25 yards would not bother me at all - 4 inches of that is a 'comb' or mounting issue, but (as Luke says) the left & right might be an issue. because it's a 1/4 to third of the pattern.

I would be inclined to ask Beretta what their tolerances are - or contact GMK in the UK and ask them. I would not volunteer your results until you know what they are working to.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

If it is still a considered purchase, I'd steer clear. If you are the owner, do contact Beretta and see what they say about warranty work: That much horizontal difference can't be in spec. The 694 hasn't been on the market too long so hopefully you can find a solution from them or the seller.

I'm also curious whether there are any outward signs, previous damages and the like, as well as about the suspected cause. You'd think misalignment of the barrels would be noticed either in production or in QC, as Beretta has automated a lot of the measuring work.

 

[Martinj]

Does this also show when you put one of those laser-cartridges in each barrel?

I tried a laser cartridge in my Beretta 692 out of curiosity and it pointed about 6" low at about 15 metres which really knocked my confidence in the gun. I made a post on this site and it was pointed out that all the laser pointer does is check the alignment of the chambers.
I don't have access to a plate for pattern testing but I did have a serious word with myself, my shooting was OK at the time, I had no reason to doubt the point of aim. I was smashing going away targets so I reasoned that things couldn't be that bad and I have ignored the laser results ever since.

Incidentally I tried the pointer in my Winchester 101 and the results were nearer to what one would expect but I don't think this really proves anything.

 

[Paul120]

It may or may not be relevant but from experience I've found that compared to Browning/ Miroku shoot higher than Beretta. With Beretta and also Perazzi to get the same results I need to see more rib. Somwhere in the region of raising the comb by 3 to 5 mm.

I've heard it before people speculate that the shallow the action, the flatter they shoot.
It could be down to the the way the barrels converge or the angles that the Ribs are fixed. Maybe Beretta etc are set up so you bee a bit more rib to get a 50/50 pattern when the bead is on the target.
I guess only by testing a number of each make would resolve if Brownings shoot higher than Beretta.
Or it could be just cobblers and it's something else.

 

[cheeko]

I tried a laser cartridge in my Beretta 692 out of curiosity and it pointed about 6" low at about 15 metres which really knocked my confidence in the gun. I made a post on this site and it was pointed out that all the laser pointer does is check the alignment of the chambers.
I don't have access to a plate for pattern testing but I did have a serious word with myself, my shooting was OK at the time, I had no reason to doubt the point of aim. I was smashing going away targets so I reasoned that things couldn't be that bad and I have ignored the laser results ever since.

Incidentally I tried the pointer in my Winchester 101 and the results were nearer to what one would expect but I don't think this really proves anything.

I don't put stock in the laser bore sight.
It was simply another test.
The gun is being sent back for testing then barrel or total replacement.

 

[cheeko]

It may or may not be relevant but from experience I've found that compared to Browning/ Miroku shoot higher than Beretta. With Beretta and also Perazzi to get the same results I need to see more rib. Somwhere in the region of raising the comb by 3 to 5 mm.

I've heard it before people speculate that the shallow the action, the flatter they shoot.
It could be down to the the way the barrels converge or the angles that the Ribs are fixed. Maybe Beretta etc are set up so you bee a bit more rib to get a 50/50 pattern when the bead is on the target.
I guess only by testing a number of each make would resolve if Brownings shoot higher than Beretta.
Or it could be just cobblers and it's something else.

Could be but as mentioned, the up/down is not so much a concern as is the left/right out of tolerance.
The gun is being sent back for testing then barrel or total replacement.
Thanks everyone!

 

[Luke_(NL)]

Keep us posted while we hope for you getting back a perfect gun.

 

[Stiggers]

I tried a laser cartridge in my Beretta 692 out of curiosity and it pointed about 6" low at about 15 metres which really knocked my confidence in the gun. I made a post on this site and it was pointed out that all the laser pointer does is check the alignment of the chambers.
I don't have access to a plate for pattern testing but I did have a serious word with myself, my shooting was OK at the time, I had no reason to doubt the point of aim. I was smashing going away targets so I reasoned that things couldn't be that bad and I have ignored the laser results ever since.

Incidentally I tried the pointer in my Winchester 101 and the results were nearer to what one would expect but I don't think this really proves anything.

Hi Op (this post is all your fault - flame suit on)

I am relatively new to this sport (clays only) and confess to never hearing of such a thing as a laser cartridge. I don’t believe my 694 has any issues other than its owner, but instantly thought after reading your post that such a device would allow me to understand ‘visually’ where I think I am pointing the gun towards……yes I know that has bugger all to do with moving clays.

My question - I have tried to Google this and only seem to find its use on pump action shotguns, but noted on one product not to close the gun when in used with an under/over gun.

Does anyone know of a product that will not knacker my 694 with it closed but placates my own desire to visually observe what my 694 is aiming towards versus my assumptions.

 

[Freddypip]

You can get 'cartridges' when include a laser which are designed to show the aim point. they don't point where the barrels do however just where the chambers do. The proper kit is laser pointer that goes in the barrel, see,

https://shootclay.co.uk/2011/07/11/review-arrow-laser-shot-lasershot-mk-2/

They do thought add weight at the end of the barrel so its swings & roundabouts.

 

[Martinj]

https://www.ant-supplies.uk/scopes-sights-optics/shotgun-shell-laser-bore-sighters.html
this is the kind of thing I used
There are better ones (more expensive) with O-Rings for a better fit in the chambers but I found that the one I used was centred in the chamber well enough. I recall adding a layer (no overlap) of masking tape around it to take up slack.
Test it by checking point of aim then rotate the device 1/3 of a rotation and repeat, if point of aim is constant then it is reasonably central in the chamber.
There's nothing to lose at £12, apart from your confidence if you can't make sense of the results.

 

[Luke_(NL)]

I used those cartridges, and closing the gun is not an issue with mine. I also did the same thing as MartinJ described, as taking out the slack is necessary (if it has any). The rotation should show well enough whether it isn't beaming out in a tilted way.

Edited to add: I bought mine on a major Eastern online marketplace and was pleasantly surprised by the quality vs. the few quid I paid.

 

[MartynB]

The only serious use for a laser cartridge is in rifles . It’s just one way of quickly and roughly aligning a new optics reticle ( telescopic sight is the general term ) to the rifle’s bore axis , so that you can get your first shots somewhere on the paper target , then you begin the dialling in process .
For a shot gun Don’t use things that can introduce doubt in your mind .

1 degree of error if the laser isn’t concentric with your barrel , is 15” at 25 yards , 30” ( a whole pattern ) at 50 yards .

 

[Stiggers]

You can get 'cartridges' when include a laser which are designed to show the aim point. they don't point where the barrels do however just where the chambers do. The proper kit is laser pointer that goes in the barrel, see,

https://shootclay.co.uk/2011/07/11/review-arrow-laser-shot-lasershot-mk-2/

They do thought add weight at the end of the barrel so its swings & roundabouts.

Every day is a school day mate - thank you.

Edit - Noooo, they dissolved the company last month and I can’t find any suppliers?

 

[Stiggers]

https://www.ant-supplies.uk/scopes-sights-optics/shotgun-shell-laser-bore-sighters.html
this is the kind of thing I used
There are better ones (more expensive) with O-Rings for a better fit in the chambers but I found that the one I used was centred in the chamber well enough. I recall adding a layer (no overlap) of masking tape around it to take up slack.
Test it by checking point of aim then rotate the device 1/3 of a rotation and repeat, if point of aim is constant then it is reasonably central in the chamber.
There's nothing to lose at £12, apart from your confidence if you can't make sense of the results.

Hi Pal

I take you had no issues closing the gun?. I sort of expected the cap end to resemble a snap cap so you could release the firing pins after breaking the gun open?

 

[Martinj]

Stigg, no they are shaped just like a cartridge or snap cap, they just drop into the chamber and you close the gun normally, you don't pull the trigger while it's in the gun, you just remove it when you have finished like an unfired cartridge

 

[cheeko]

Hi Op (this post is all your fault - flame suit on)

I am relatively new to this sport (clays only) and confess to never hearing of such a thing as a laser cartridge. I don’t believe my 694 has any issues other than its owner, but instantly thought after reading your post that such a device would allow me to understand ‘visually’ where I think I am pointing the gun towards……yes I know that has bugger all to do with moving clays.

My question - I have tried to Google this and only seem to find its use on pump action shotguns, but noted on one product not to close the gun when in used with an under/over gun.

Does anyone know of a product that will not knacker my 694 with it closed but placates my own desire to visually observe what my 694 is aiming towards versus my assumptions.

THis is the one I used.
Gun was disassembled, barrels locked in a gun vise.
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B09VGL5RZ5?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1
Like I said, I only used it for a quick visual, not as a defining instrumennt to judge by.
The laser spot was pretty accurate as I rotated the shell, i.e. the machining tolerances were farily tight.
I never did assemble the gun, chamber the bore sighter and close the gun.