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I once saw a gent on the skeet field snip off a painful bit of flesh as he held his Beretta somehow under the action so when he opened it the lower edge of the forend iron where it meets the action just sliced a piece from his left hand.  Those edges can be just WAY sharp on some gun and his certainly was.

 
Hamster ,

 Are you SURE it was a Miroku and not a Samurai sword , now THEY are sharp , ask me how I know .

 
Hamster ,

 Are you SURE it was a Miroku and not a Samurai sword , now THEY are sharp , ask me how I know .
I know for sure the Miroku 6000 G3 which I bought online unseen brand new had the fore end metal parts permanently attached to the wood which meant sharp edges were unavoidable. Nice gun which “fitted” me like a glove and swung like a thing meant to swung as Blackadder would say but was useless in terms of achieving decent scores which exposes the naive lie that “fit” is the be all and end all. 

 
... Nice gun which “fitted” me like a glove and swung like a thing meant to swung as Blackadder would say but was useless in terms of achieving decent scores which exposes the naive lie that “fit” is the be all and end all. 
Thanks @Hamster your comment . It gives me a sense of validation to some conclusions I’ve been drawing.

As someone still fairly new to the sport, I’m always looking towards more experienced folk to help inform and educate me. As an inquisitive and skeptical engineer, I always question ‘tried and trusted’ methods to better understand the fundamentals.

After some reading, observations and experimentation, I’ve concluded (subject to change of course) that indeed gun fit or pretty much anything else is  not “the be all and end all”.

Gun fit doesn’t matter a fig when you’re shooting from the hip. I don’t mean a bit of showboating, I mean in actual competition. There’s a YouTube clip to testify to that. The caveat being this is not the preferred way to shoot and good gun fit (and good mount) can of course be beneficial. If it’s within your means and interest, it makes sense to have a gun fit. 

In my own very limited experience, I’ve shot almost as well with an “ill fitting” ATA as I have with my more personalised F16,. Even on occasion badly miss mounting on gun down shots but still breaking the clay. I’ve done it badly a sufficient number of times to be reasonably sure it wasn’t only luck.

I’ve drawn similar conclusions about shot weight, size and chokes. Breaking 50 yard + clays with 21gram 7.5 CompX through 1\4 chokes enough times to be left with the impression that ones that get away because of shot weight/size, choke are anecdotally at least about one in a thousand . So much for technology!

Technique similarly comes under scrutiny. There are world champions, some multiple times, who have such different stance, gun mount and method that’s it’s not unreasonable to assume that the text book approach whilst not invalid, is perhaps not as crucial as it may be purported.

That leaves talent. In some sports, motor racing for example, much of the performance is clearly down to technology (engineering) and technique (strategy/ teamwork) and the talent makes a small but important difference perhaps best and only truly seen between driver team pairings.

In shooting, it seems evident that talent makes up a much larger part of the overall outcome. George Digweed can be seen stopping the gun ever so momentarily.  A big no no under the watchful gaze of an instructor. But if you’re timing and line is spot on, it wouldn’t matter if the gun was bolted to the floor.

World champions mourning too low in the shoulder, or seeing too much rib resulting in a certain shooting over the top, routinely scoring 95+ Ex 100.

So, talent for me in this sport really stands out as the key differentiator while technique and technology may momentarily flatter to deceive. 

Personally I’ve found I have shot my best when I’m most relaxed and most confident. I’ve found greater confidence as I’ve tinkered around with equipment and technique and deciding that these things don’t make a lot of difference per se. Getting my gun to fit reasonably well so that I feel comfortable and confident, having cartridge/choke that is sensible all rounder combination so I don’t give it any further thought and a baseline stance, mount, method and adaptability thats “good enough” to get the job done, the rest falls to practice and whatever level of natural ability I may possess. I’m not knocking coaching, in fact for me it’s been useful to learn from others in finding what works best for me. I’m not knocking equipment either. I definitely feel more confident shooting the Blaser than the Browning, and yet I like and shoot both equally.

It has been one year since I first shot clays at a straw bale corporate event last May. If I were able to begin again right back to that moment, I’d shoot from my left, knowing as I did then, that my eyes would be working for me rather than against.

I’d still take those CPSA introduction to clay pigeon shooting and shotgun skills courses and I’d still book a block of six lessons before committing to applying for my SGC. However, before buying a gun, I’d book an appointment with Ed Lyons and make sure that I’m using my most important piece of equipment to its best ability. 
 

I think I’d still tinker around with gun fit, cartridges and chokes, just to ‘get it out of  my system‘ and I’d just go out and practice, taking a coaching session probably once every couple of months. Ed Solomons has been great for me in this regard. He’s easy to get along with and doesn’t try to mould you into a set of predetermined parameters, though I’m sure a more rigid military like approach works well for some too.

2020 was going to be the year I’d start competing and had planned to enter the Southdown Talent Pool competition. That’s now going to be 2021, assuming we have more freedom to move around by then. Certainly there a prospects of restrictions being imposed for another 12-18 months. I learned only yesterday that one institution and themselves a leading authority on virology and pandemic management have essentially postponed their operations until September 2021.

Good luck to everyone in all your endeavours. 

 

 
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Nice gun which “fitted” me like a glove and swung like a thing meant to swung as Blackadder would say but was useless in terms of achieving decent scores which exposes the naive lie that “fit” is the be all and end all. 
Those two things are incompatible AFAIC.  How the gun might "feel" and how it actually "fits" may be entirely different things.  However together they do not result in poor scores unless the simple skills of the shooter are lacking.

JMO of course since Limeys seem to have strange interpretations of that "fit" thing.  For a Q&D version of what it means to me and many others I would refer you to Michael Yardley

 
I know for sure the Miroku 6000 G3 which I bought online unseen brand new had the fore end metal parts permanently attached to the wood which meant sharp edges were unavoidable. Nice gun which “fitted” me like a glove and swung like a thing meant to swung as Blackadder would say but was useless in terms of achieving decent scores which exposes the naive lie that “fit” is the be all and end all. 
If you want an example of gun fit not being the be all and end all, have a look at the second Digweed Faulds interview video. Richard talks about Duncan Lawton having to use Richards left handed gun as a right handed shooter at a championship and shooting 25 straight when his own Remington failed.

 
If you want an example of gun fit not being the be all and end all, have a look at the second Digweed Faulds interview video. Richard talks about Duncan Lawton having to use Richards left handed gun as a right handed shooter at a championship and shooting 25 straight when his own Remington failed.
I know, as it happens I fell in love with a mates brand new left handed Perazzi he had custom built to his measurements, (which he incidentally sold on fairly rapidly as he couldn’t gel with it) - obviously lots of things were wrong with the fit such as length and cast but the barrels were light by P standards and I could shoot it. That gun in right handed spec would be a treasure to me. 

Theres a lot of rubbish talked about when it comes to “fit” and that includes those spoken by the famous. 

 
I know, as it happens I fell in love with a mates brand new left handed Perazzi he had custom built to his measurements, (which he incidentally sold on fairly rapidly as he couldn’t gel with it) - obviously lots of things were wrong with the fit such as length and cast but the barrels were light by P standards and I could shoot it. That gun in right handed spec would be a treasure to me. 

Theres a lot of rubbish talked about when it comes to “fit” and that includes those spoken by the famous. 
At the end of the day its a shotgun with a built in tolerance in the pattern, if your fit is crucial to the mm, then surely your mount as to be equally as accurate.

There are some people that could shoot 25 straight with a brush handle!

 
Excellent thread drift this. 🤣

For me, fit is a pretty simple thing. Mainly it’s about comfort, so correct length to create the correct angles at your elbows. Approx 90 degrees for the trigger arm. Butt pad should be the right shape and pitch angle. Then it’s how your eye aligns with the rib without any deliberate positioning of the face. The eye really needs to be central on the rib in the Left /Right axis. The height above it is more flexible, but for me seeing a bit of rib and not too flat is best. Prove you can repeatedly centre hit a dead straight going away clay in comfort and the job is done really. One other check I do is to point the gun far left and then far right, checking that the eye still stays aligned. You may be surprised if it doesn’t and you can twist the but pad to assist this. 
 

Many people don’t realise that on any clay that needs lead (and that’s most of them in sporting) your eye is not looking along the rib, but to one side (at the clay) while the rib is pointing towards the kill point ahead. The reason for ensuring your eye is centred is for the “at it” targets and to keep lead pictures even, left to right.

 
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If you want an example of gun fit not being the be all and end all, have a look at the second Digweed Faulds interview video. Richard talks about Duncan Lawton having to use Richards left handed gun as a right handed shooter at a championship and shooting 25 straight when his own Remington failed.
An amazing feat indeed but overcoming an ill fitting gun is not normally seen as a component of shooting competitions = = = at least not in my experience tho that may be different in Limeyland   :thumbsu:

 
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