Failure to enter your card

[GulfCoast]

On several occasions i have backed refs up when calling missed,many shooters seem to think the wad is always a chip off the clay!

Back in the early days, here in 'merica, it was common to shoot sporting tournaments with reloads.  A penny saved is a penny earned, and so forth.  Then, folks figured out they could reload with "orange wads," and if they missed a bird, ask their "entourage": Did I hit that, I thought I saw a chip? Thus the development of the pejorative term "chip squads," and shoots going to "factory ammo only."  It is sad what people will do just to try to game the system for an activity that is supposed to be fun...……..

 

[Guest]

Hmm. well then of course there is the other side of the coin, we have a guy ,good shot, but due to eye sight often says missed that .missed that when he has actually demolished them convincingly !

 

[El Spavo]

I think we have all had targets where due to the second being so fast we have asked the scorer did I hit the first one, but to say or write down a false score is only making a fool of your self, cant see whats to be gained at all, most everyone has good and bad days .

     I have seen a couple blokes, did I hit that ? the other ,ye ye, so embaressed that I turned around to see the guys in the queue behind me just shaking their heads, blatant cheating, and this is just a local straw bale type thing, no winnings paid out?   I geuss narcasism gets the better of them.

You only ever learn by doing things wrong, not doing them right... otherwise, erm, you've cracked it, obviously! So all these tools are doing is not finding out WHY they've missed, practising,  then progressing cos they'd rather have their ego stroked. Crazy!

 

[Spr1985]

As a new shooter in general but also new to competition shooting I cannot even start to understand why you would bin a card or lie about scores if you don’t want the fair genuine competition don’t shoot the comps simple as that......I’m not a fantastic shot far from it in fact posted mediocre scores at the Essex masters, brought a smile to my face when I realised id shot a stand better than my instructor had but doesn’t change the fact my scores where poor overall... I will progress at my own pace and let that be seen through all my scores being entered legitimately. 

If you’re going to play the game play it bybthe rules in my opinion 

 

[El Spavo]

Hah, I get exactly the same buzz if I outscore the better shots I hang about with. Admittedly, normally get spanked for the rest of the shoot, but that one stand is glorious! 

 

[James McAlevey]

Hi I have to say all this talk of binning cards is against the CPSA rules. If you bin your card you will receive a letter from the CPSA giving you a warning not to do this again, because they have the master sheet from the shoot.  Cheers Jimmy

 

[Martinj]

There are shoots out there which don't have master sheets so it's open to abuse.

 

[GulfCoast]

There are shoots out there which don't have master sheets so it's open to abuse.

Indeed, I have seen "State Championship" level shoots here 'cross the pond that did not have master sheets at every stand.  Cheaters will find a way to cheat, its just "who they are."

 

[Deleted member 230]

Hi I have to say all this talk of binning cards is against the CPSA rules. If you bin your card you will receive a letter from the CPSA giving you a warning not to do this again, because they have the master sheet from the shoot.  Cheers Jimmy

Sorry to rain on your parade Jimmy. If you believe this actually happens then you are in cuckoo land.

It should but it doesn't.

And the grounds that don't report the non return of cards are totally undermining the class system. A short sighted stance imo. 

Jasper 

 

[ips]

In trap there is only one card which the ref fills in, there is no way of not handing your score in and it being documented by cpsa for your class percentages.

However, in 30 plus yrs of competitive trap shooting at a reasonable level i have witnessed on two occasions at two different grounds by two different people them asking the ground owner or there staff not to submit there score as it would potentially drop them into a lower class....as an aside i also knew of one shooter who used there mums address for cpsa number so they could shoot in a different county and have more chance of winning badges. I also knew of a similar scenario in order to shoot for a county team other than there own......goodness knows what else goes on especially in esp.

 

[MartynB]

....as an aside i also knew of one shooter who used there mums address for cpsa number so they could shoot in a different county and have more chance of winning badges. I also knew of a similar scenario in order to shoot for a county team other than there own......goodness knows what else goes on especially in esp.

“Tallest Dwarf “ syndrome , the need to be in the top tier of something  , rather than just being happy with yourself .  

 

[Martinj]

“Tallest Dwarf “ syndrome , the need to be in the top tier of something  , rather than just being happy with yourself .  

or being Grumpy or Bashful?

 

[timps]

I know I got one of the very first letters from the CPSA informing me I had failed to hand in a score card, but then so did three other guys I had shot with. I did complain to the CPSA that I and the others had handed them in and she did let it drop that I was not the first person that had rang in to complain that day (I was the first of my group) and there was obviously an issue.

 In my case the ground had made a simple mistake due to entry number on the top of the score card not matching up to the entry number on the entry sheet next to my CPSA number used to upload scores to the CPSA. As we had gone birds only and not in the prize money no one bothered looking us up but did tell the CPSA we hadn’t handed our cards in.

 The letter did make me feel like a cheat and I was furious about the tone of it and let the ground owners know, I know others at the time mentioned it and whether this was the reason they now don’t seem to report 'lost' cards to the CPSA I don't know, but if enough people complained to them then it would make them think twice I feel.

I also told the CPSA I did not like the tone of the letter accusing me of cheating without checking with me first if there was a valid explanation, their answer was it's not their fault it’s the ground for telling them no card was handed in.

I explained if the letter had been worded asking me if there was a reason why my card had not been handed in or was it a mistake from the ground and could I contact them then I would not have been as angry as the off with your head you cheating scum letter I received.

The thing is with this is I could be a cheat and they have only our word that we handed the cards in and anyone who receives one of those letters is going to swear blind they handed the card in with no proof you did or didn't.

The problem with registered shooting is it has a small number of regular participants and the ground owner now knows he pissed off 4 regular shooters enough (as not our fault & tone of letter) that we nearly never came back. Is he going to risk losing customers when it could be a sandbagger, mistake on the grounds part or a valid reason like illness or emergency.

Either way he could be losing money over it with no real benefit to the ground, it’s much easier for him to cross the shooter of the list.

One ground owner also told me he hasn’t the time or the inclination to look through all the master sheets (if they even have one) to chase numerous shooters whose cards are missing.

I know one old boy was so incensed he let his CPSA membership lapse because of a letter he received. He told the ground owner he was unwell and left for home after only 3 or 4 stands but still got a nasty letter for whatever reason.

No idea if the CPSA have toned them down a bit now but the early ones where pretty much libellous IMHO and a lot of grounds got burnt when they first sent them out so just decided to ignore the rule for commercial reasons/easy life.

Whoever worded those early letters with a broad brush confrontational approach has to take the blame for that I feel.

 

[schmokinn]

I know I got one of the very first letters from the CPSA informing me I had failed to hand in a score card, but then so did three other guys I had shot with. I did complain to the CPSA that I and the others had handed them in and she did let it drop that I was not the first person that had rang in to complain that day (I was the first of my group) and there was obviously an issue.

 In my case the ground had made a simple mistake due to entry number on the top of the score card not matching up to the entry number on the entry sheet next to my CPSA number used to upload scores to the CPSA. As we had gone birds only and not in the prize money no one bothered looking us up but did tell the CPSA we hadn’t handed our cards in.

 The letter did make me feel like a cheat and I was furious about the tone of it and let the ground owners know, I know others at the time mentioned it and whether this was the reason they now don’t seem to report 'lost' cards to the CPSA I don't know, but if enough people complained to them then it would make them think twice I feel.

I also told the CPSA I did not like the tone of the letter accusing me of cheating without checking with me first if there was a valid explanation, their answer was it's not their fault it’s the ground for telling them no card was handed in.

I explained if the letter had been worded asking me if there was a reason why my card had not been handed in or was it a mistake from the ground and could I contact them then I would not have been as angry as the off with your head you cheating scum letter I received.

The thing is with this is I could be a cheat and they have only our word that we handed the cards in and anyone who receives one of those letters is going to swear blind they handed the card in with no proof you did or didn't.

The problem with registered shooting is it has a small number of regular participants and the ground owner now knows he pissed off 4 regular shooters enough (as not our fault & tone of letter) that we nearly never came back. Is he going to risk losing customers when it could be a sandbagger, mistake on the grounds part or a valid reason like illness or emergency.

Either way he could be losing money over it with no real benefit to the ground, it’s much easier for him to cross the shooter of the list.

One ground owner also told me he hasn’t the time or the inclination to look through all the master sheets (if they even have one) to chase numerous shooters whose cards are missing.

I know one old boy was so incensed he let his CPSA membership lapse because of a letter he received. He told the ground owner he was unwell and left for home after only 3 or 4 stands but still got a nasty letter for whatever reason.

No idea if the CPSA have toned them down a bit now but the early ones where pretty much libellous IMHO and a lot of grounds got burnt when they first sent them out so just decided to ignore the rule for commercial reasons/easy life.

Whoever worded those early letters with a broad brush confrontational approach has to take the blame for that I feel.

Letters still the same i have had 2 both times a failure of the same ground to actually return my scores as both times it had been handed in!

 

[Deleted member 230]

The problem with registered shooting is it has a small number of regular participants and the ground owner now knows he pissed off 4 regular shooters enough (as not our fault & tone of letter) that we nearly never came back. Is he going to risk losing customers when it could be a sandbagger, mistake on the grounds part or a valid reason like illness or emergency.

Either way he could be losing money over it with no real benefit to the ground, it’s much easier for him to cross the shooter of the list.

One ground owner also told me he hasn’t the time or the inclination to look through all the master sheets (if they even have one) to chase numerous shooters whose cards are missing.

as I said. the grounds that don't play are undermining the system. perhaps the honest shooters should boycott the grounds . maybe they would worry about it then. its seems the grounds are more than happy to rake in the cash for holding reg shoots but don't want to apply the rules that go with them. maybe these grounds should be banned , as is allowed in the rules.

jasper

 

[Charliedog]

or why not  just enjoy your own shooting and dont worry whether others are handing in cards or not, really only cheating themselves, no real money involved and if it makes them feel good about an inflated category that they will never win then so be it

 

[timps]

as I said. the grounds that don't play are undermining the system. perhaps the honest shooters should boycott the grounds . maybe they would worry about it then. its seems the grounds are more than happy to rake in the cash for holding reg shoots but don't want to apply the rules that go with them. maybe these grounds should be banned , as is allowed in the rules.

jasper

Unfortunately, the CPSA need grounds more than the grounds need the CPSA.

In my neck of the woods when I first started there were a plethora of registered shoots now there is just one. The grounds are all still there and still successful but had enough of the CPSA telling them how to run their business so make money their own way. The one that still holds registered stopped for a very brief moment when the CPSA tried to flex their muscles and the CPSA backed down very quickly.

I have to travel and unless I want to travel silly mileage, I have just enough grounds to shoot one registered a week, however if I boycott a shoot it adds a heck of a lot of miles or I don’t shoot registered that week.

The letter the CPSA sent me was horrendous, no ifs or buts I was cheating. The fact they were completely wrong didn’t faze them, it  genuinely is no wonder they have had to settle so many out of court settlements.  

If they were a bit more understanding that there could be other reasons than cheating and toned the letter a heck of a lot better maybe grounds would have stayed on board.  A letter asking questions rather than unfounded accusations of cheating and I wouldn’t have been so bothered.

If C class shooters want to pretend they are A class shooters then that doesn't bother me, the other way round would, but I have only seen people do it for vanity of a higher class not to stay in a lower one.

But in IMHO the wording on the CPSA letter upset a lot of people. 

 

[Deleted member 230]

Ok Timps we'll keep stum and let the sport self destruct. Cheats and those grounds who support cheats should not be involved in the sport. But just so you got some where to go shooting we'll let it go. 

Regards

Jasper.

Let's just forget all this cpsa stuff, make all shoots "open " pay the top 10 job done ??

 

[timps]

Ok Timps we'll keep stum and let the sport self destruct. Cheats and those grounds who support cheats should not be involved in the sport. But just so you got some where to go shooting we'll let it go. 

Regards

Jasper.

Let's just forget all this cpsa stuff, make all shoots "open " pay the top 10 job done ??

It’s called living in the real world, grounds are businesses with the sole intention of making money, anything that jeopardises it will turn the owners off. If there are no grounds because they are either barred or unwilling to hold CPSA events in an area then the CPSA ceases to be of any use and will self-destruct. This has already happened in certain areas, former regular registered shooters I know have given up with the CPSA as there is only open shoots or practice with in what they consider a reasonable traveling distance.

When I first started in the CPSA they didn’t send out letters or chastise shooters for not handing their cards in and the sport didn’t self-destruct back then.

When they first introduced it, grounds adhered to the rule but the tone of the letters put some grounds off simple fact.

Manipulation of the averages happens all the time and quite within the rules, from the guy who shot one shoot years ago, put in an AA score and never shoots the 300 targets to be dropped, to the guy who only shoots one easy ground are all in classes way above their national average ability but within the rules.

But what does it matter ?

A shooter that can’t shoot his average is not going to be cheating anyone out anything, they are not good enough to be in that class. The other way around and they can’t be handing many winning cards in or they’d be going up a class.

But to answer your question I need grounds to hold a CPSA registered shoots for the CPSA to be of any use to me.  If you can find away of keeping grounds holding events while punishing cheaters then I’m for it, but if not, I’d rather keep the ground.

My own personal view is I could have quite easily manipulated the handing of my cards in and choice of shoots to be in just in AAA or comfortably in AA, but guess what I’m in A as that is my natural ability with a mix of hard and soft shoots and different grounds.

I do hand my cards in as I’m in competition against myself but not anyone else regarding averages.

I don’t limit myself to soft grounds and I have frequently travelled 180 miles in a day for a good hard shoot, but there is no point of comparing my averages against the bloke in AA who shoots one local ground. If he can beat me on the day then he deserves to be a class above me if not he is only deluding himself.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I read all of these comments and just have to wonder why it is that there is not simply a score sheet for the squad and not individuals?  I mean, even if there are only two shooters put them on a single score sheet.

here are a variety of examples - I suspect that at least one of them could be a basis for a model.  How difficult can it be to record 5 or 6 shooters and a 100 or so targets?

https://shootpita.com/score-sheets/

or did I miss something crucial?