Gun up & down mounting/targetting

[bisondan]

There's a guy who shoots where I go who constantly gives the old, you're behind on that, or some equivalent, but his shooting is simply awful and some stands he can't hit a particular bird for weeks. We all know someone like that I bet.

Pet hate for me is people saying stuff like that when you haven't asked their opinion. Everyone's a twatting expert!

Anyone can stand there and say "you're in front of that" but there's usually a reason why you are in front, behind or wherever on a target.

It's not helpful and not always wanted, and in a couple of recent coaching sessions I was struggling with a couple of things; the process of putting them right meant that I missed a few but once corrected it felt easy. 

 

[El Spavo]

That's the thing, it's more important to know why you're doing it to be able to correct, but it's equally annoying cos you simply don't know if the person has any idea what they're talking about, which can then mess with your head. Couple of times I've thought they were wrong and did the opposite cos I believed in myself, got it right, then when they comment again tell them it wasn't what they were saying.

Even been asked myself my opinion, which is fine, but I always quantify it first by saying, 'don't take this as gospel, but I personally think it's x, y, z'.

 

[Lloyd]

I suppose I’m fortunate that I can filter that sort of thing (unsolicited advice) out if I want to. 

I don’t believe in “experts” myself, and sometimes I filter out the advice from the “experts” too.

For me, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the recipe.

I’m reminded of a time some time 30 odd years ago I was having a driving lesson. Reversing around a corner was the order of what happened to be a very sunny day.

I’m a bit light sensitive so I wore sunglasses. Will come back to that later. 

Anyhow... I was struggling to get this right. Let’s just say I was “behind” but the “expert instructor” couldn’t get to the root of the problem. Well he tired. He yelled at me to “take those effing sunglasses off, driving isn’t about trying to look cool” or words to the effect.

Still, this pearl of wisdom didn’t yield the desired result. At the end of the lesson, I returned home and the instructor said “see you next week!” I smiled and shut the car door. I did not see him the next week.

The next week I had another instructor... you see this is what taught me that having just one instructor isn’t necessarily the right approach, because my new instructor took a different approach. First time out I nailed the reversing around the corner. Repeated just a few more times to make sure I really got it and hey presto, I was perfect.

The fact is, I was perfect with the first instructor in terms of repeatability, but not in accuracy. This was because the first instructor really knew how to drive, but really didn’t know how to instruct or how to treat people. The second instructor in this regard proved his worth.

Equally I have been given great advice by some people inexperienced In their field. You see, the most expert of experts don’t know everything. Even if they think they do. In fact I’d say “buyer beware” because such folks who lay such claims are often just snake oil salesmen. The truly knowledgeable know they don’t know everything.  And even the least knowledgeable may well have learned something that some great guru hasn’t come across.

My approach is to listen to everything.

Take nothing as gospel.

Gather a consensus, then make your own conclusions.

Know that nothing is ever cast in stone. Be prepared to change your mind when given good reason.

Be aware of those claiming to possess some secret sauce.

Be aware of those that discredit their competitors. It often masks weakness.

Don’t take their success as guarantee of my success...

Or take their failings as a warning of my own failings.

Deal only with people who can evidence their claims (verify their evidence)

Deal only with people of demonstrated integrity... especially if you’re paying them

Call time out if the progress stalls

 

[Will Hewland]

I suppose it would all be boring if we were robots that merely needed to have the right programme uploaded to make us shoot well. Instead, the information from coaches has to go through a personality and that’s why this conversation will never end. The best information can be adopted well or resisted (consciously or sub consciously) by the shooter. Trying to instruct some young lads for instance is a challenge as their natural teen defiance kicks in. When my mate started shooting he was utterly defiant to advice and shot like a twonk for a year. It was year 3 before he was doing all the things I had tried to tell him initially but he admits he just cannot take advice and had to work it out for himself. Utterly pig headed. He’s an intelligent person, which probably doesn’t help.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Sorry, I was referring to English sporting which I think has a little more variance in how little you see the bird and unknown angles of trajectory to work with I would propose, but I get your point though.

Don't know how you come up with that. You get a chance to see the targets before you shoot and sometimes you will see the target many times over before you actually shoot it at ESP. In fact you know exactly where the target is coming from and going to, the angle and height... you stand and watch the shooter before you shoot the targets that you are going to shoot next...so actually not too different to skeet in that respect. I do understand that skeet is a repetitive game though.

 

[Lloyd]

I suppose it would all be boring if we were robots that merely needed to have the right programme uploaded to make us shoot well. Instead, the information from coaches has to go through a personality and that’s why this conversation will never end. The best information can be adopted well or resisted (consciously or sub consciously) by the shooter. Trying to instruct some young lads for instance is a challenge as their natural teen defiance kicks in. When my mate started shooting he was utterly defiant to advice and shot like a twonk for a year. It was year 3 before he was doing all the things I had tried to tell him initially but he admits he just cannot take advice and had to work it out for himself. Utterly pig headed. He’s an intelligent person, which probably doesn’t help.

I’m not saying I cannot identity with this. Except being a teenager... that I’ve long forgotten about. Oh... and probably the intelligence bit too.

In summary... I’m a bit.. a lot pig headed

 

[El Spavo]

Don't know how you come up with that. You get a chance to see the targets before you shoot and sometimes you will see the target many times over before you actually shoot it at ESP. In fact you know exactly where the target is coming from and going to, the angle and height... you stand and watch the shooter before you shoot the targets that you are going to shoot next...so actually not too different to skeet in that respect. I do understand that skeet is a repetitive game though.

I meant that last bit... Skeet is the same format the world over if you're doing the same discipline, English sporting can and does vary hugely from one course to the next. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

I meant that last bit... Skeet is the same format the world over if you're doing the same discipline, English sporting can and does vary hugely from one course to the next. 

Yes I agree but you see the targets ad nausea um before you have to shoot them... there is not secret there you watch the guy before you and the guy before him and before him... if you don't know where it is coming from where it is going to and the angle etc  after watching that lot it is your own fault... and then you get your 6 or 8 or ten targets all doing exactly the same to shoot at.

 

[Lloyd]

@jwpzx9r I think what @El Spavo is eluding to is that in English Sporting, you may be 6th in a squad of six on a stand of five pairs so you get to shoot the same target that you’ve seen 25-29 times. Over say ten or twelve stands. Much less if your first up of course. Then you move onto the next comp and you’re seeing a different 25 targets per stand... or again, much less. So with your three grounds, 1000 target CPSA derived averages you’ve seen perhaps 40 presentations. Over a ten year period that will be of course approximately 400 different presentations
 

With skeet you’ll only ever see 8 presentations, so shooting 10,000 targets in ten years you’ll practice each presentation 1,250 times  That’s 50 times the amount of practice you’d have for English sporting

 

[jwpzx9r]

@Lloyd  Yes I understand that BUT you are still seeing any targets you are about to shoot, in some cases many times over, before you shoot them. If that does not give you the speed , angles and trajectories you must go into these situations asleep :lol:  . Of course this is probably exactly where the really good shooter can make his abilities shine... he sees the targets analyses the situation determines the best way to break the targets and remembers what he is going to do. I am not suggesting it is easy but you are given all the information required to break the targets you are about to get before you have to shoot them. It is no secret you know exactly where the target will come from and where it will go to... it is up to you... in that respect it is no different to shooting skeet. Of course I recognize that skeet is repetitive and possible to learn by repetition . 

 

[paul b]

A fixed discipline shooter will only make very subtle changes from ground to ground so will have a hard wired mental picture of whats got to happen wherever they go,finding the correct subtle changes down to weather conditions and backgrounds are the only thing that need to be worked out and who can do that most efficiently whilst holding the brain together will be on top.

Sporting disciplines by there nature throw so many different presentations it hard to know what to do even with a squad infront to see them,if you haven't shot that type of presentation for a while,and that's why a lot of the top end boys n girls put in the miles building a vest memory bank of sight pictures. Obviously there's the odd freak about (yes im jelous) who can just roll up after not shooting for a age and muller everything.

 

[Lloyd]

@jwpzx9r Yeah. I see what you’re saying. That while skeet you see the presentations ultimately more often, you do get opportunities to see them. So yeah. It’s not going in totally blind. 
From a personal perspective, looking over someone’s shoulder I don’t get a wholly accurate picture. This comes back to the driving lesson thing actually. My height, or rather the lack of it, means the angles (Reversing around a corner situation) are a smidgen out of place compared to a more average height person.

On some occasions this also applies to my shooting and it’s not until I am in the cage that I get a precise picture.

More often than not I can make small adjustments and shoot reasonably successfully (given the amount of experience I have). Recently this cost me a target as I wasn’t able to see the clay early enough to pick it up with enough time to match its speed and kill it before it went out of view behind trees. By moving forward in the cage just six inches, this significantly altered the time I had and I then hit all the remaining pairs.

I have shot blind i.e. not being shown the target or being told from which trap it would be coming from. That was the first and only time I shot 25 straight and it so happens that it was within my first couple of months of shooting. Sounds grander than it was mind you as the targets were all close range, the sort of thing you would be excepted to hit anyway. I’ve missed those same targets since too, but gradually getting back on top of them as I gain more experience, control, better at planning and keeping focused for more than 0.5 seconds

 

[El Spavo]

From a personal perspective, looking over someone’s shoulder I don’t get a wholly accurate picture. This comes back to the driving lesson thing actually. My height, or rather the lack of it, means the angles (Reversing around a corner situation) are a smidgen out of place compared to a more average height person.

On some occasions this also applies to my shooting and it’s not until I am in the cage that I get a precise picture.

Yeah, I find this occasionally. Just yesterday, standing behind someone didn't show that when you're in the cage, you could see the trap and therefore see when exactly when it was released, meaning you could track it much easier and shoot it quicker when it was in an better position for the side the clay was displaying. Going for that further shot cos I initially had a later hold point cost me a few cos foliage obscured me from seeing it from behind the guy in the cage.

And we all know it's not the done thing to stand so close that they can feel your breath on their ear like a suspect uncle.  

 

[MartynB]

The more you shoot , the more you will develop a mental library of target presentations that you can dip into because the target you are seeing is similar to one you have dealt with successfully before . To back that up you also need a basic process that you repeat so you have a datum to work from , and it’s got to be one that works  for you .  
If you're shooting practice with buddies , you don’t have to bang away to try to find a clay . Ask them to send you a pair of clays and just follow them with a finger , if you don’t see how you’d set up for it , ask to see another pair .  Don’t look at it as a wasted clay , more a saved cartridge ! 

 

[Lloyd]

And we all know it's not the done thing to stand so close that they can feel your breath on their ear like a suspect uncle.

 Don’t look at it as a wasted clay , more a saved cartridge ! 

Good point

 

[MartynB]

And we all know it's not the done thing to stand so close that they can feel your breath on their ear like a suspect uncle.  

PML ! The thought of a Keith Moon type standing behind you is enough to make anyone give up shooting 
 

 

[Cosmicblue]

The pre-mounted/out of the shoulder to some degree is another example of having a 'tool box' of skills to utilise for a given target presentation.   

Most times I will pre-mount however there are targets that one encounters that take ages to appear, incomers spring to mind, and for those, especially if it's the 1st of the pair then I'll start with the gun slightly out of the shoulder as I can achieve a nice smooth process of acquiring the target visually and getting the gun in the right place to achieve a kill - consistently.

There probably isn't a right/wrong answer - just a case of what works for you with a given presentation.