How many shooting grounds do you know of which have stopped doing Reg Comp's?

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

I downloaded the fixture list today from the web site of A1 Shooting Ground in Barnet, North London, which extends so far through to May 2013, but I could see no mention of their normal Registered ESP Competitions.

Having then phoned the club, I was disappointed to learn that they have decided not to run registered comps due to poor support, and will only now continue to offer coaching and sporting practice.

Following on from Guerini Guy 's comment, above in another thread, how many shooting grounds do you know of which have stopped doing ESP registered competitions?

To be fair, it's not the first time I've heard this "it doesn't turn enough coin" comment, and yet few decent shooting grounds are 'trap only' and still offer ESP shooting to members and day visitors, even if they've binned ESP reg comp's.

Thoughts?

 

[SoR]

I believe Kibworth has stopped doing registered esp, sure I read that yesterday on here

 

[Jan Powell]

Moving off the point slightly, Sporting, particularly registered competitions, is an expensive event for grounds to host. You need at least double the number of traps, double the number of referees and office staff, 5 times as much space and that's not taking into account the clean up costs afterwards.

Whilst Sporting brings more through the door than an average trap or skeet competition I suspect it's not that much more. Perhaps not enough to justify the extra expense and hassle.

Given the lack of cash in shooters pockets maybe it's not suprising that grounds are turning their back on registered events when other disciplines can be hosted for half the price.

 

[SoR]

Its the same for any business in a tough economic climate anything thats not paying its way gets pulled, survival really.
You have a good point with registered sporting shoots costing so much trappers on each stand admin etc whereas skeet or trap are fixed on ranges

 

[RobertBeard]

Moving off the point slightly, Sporting, particularly registered competitions, is an expensive event for grounds to host. You need at least double the number of traps, double the number of referees and office staff, 5 times as much space and that's not taking into account the clean up costs afterwards.

Whilst Sporting brings more through the door than an average trap or skeet competition I suspect it's not that much more. Perhaps not enough to justify the extra expense and hassle.

Given the lack of cash in shooters pockets maybe it's not suprising that grounds are turning their back on registered events when other disciplines can be hosted for half the price.

What's the comparative cost to entre skeet or trap competitions compared to ESP?  If it costs more then if we want it we will have to pay more.  We have already seen some grounds charging a lot more for their clays than others.  Is this because they are reflecting the extra cost or just charging more?

If we lose grounds to ESP we will be faced with reverting to clubs with all the self help that that requires, setting up traps, manning traps, tidying up after and putting the stuff away if you can find somewhere to do it- I would rather pay.

We do need to support the grounds and it sounds as if lots do a fantastic job so lets help to keep it that way.

 

[Hawkeye]

Skeet comp's are about £27 - £32 / 100 bird's only , but never understand why it cost's more to shoot a 100 target comp than 100 practice when no ref's are provided for the comp

 

[SoR]

its not the entry robert, i think unless they get a big turnout putting on a registered esp shoot has fixed(ish) overheads and if you only have a low turnout of shooters it speaks for itself. skeet and trap the overheads are lower if you discount the range build costs....... 

think we need a qulified opinion from a ground owner not my humble ramblings reved:

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Nah....... :laugh: sporters won't pay more.... :laugh:

It's like this see

Sporters love to moan about everything.....!

As Will said.......he told Claudio his layout was crap and even sent a letter explaining it all (politely I am sure). I do not know how many others do this at grounds across the country......a little word of advice here.....a little word of advice there.......I know that Worsely used to experience 'course setting experts' and that was years ago.

There are toooo few grounds and they should be appreciated.

How many on here say thank you ref each time they leave a stand (when he or her has been sitting there freezing their balls off all morning).

How many say thank you at the end of the day to the owner who provided the shooting no matter what you thought of it.

I do.....when shooting sporting or anything.....always.

Now think if you were a ground owner and got moaning and 'helpful advice' or letters....what would you think...?

I give you a hypothetical senario...

If it was me........ (and you might be getting one of these people a month) I would think......who is he?......I will look him up on cpsa to see if he was a new Digweed. Ooooops no he is not....so I would then think 'cheeky lover'!

Then there are he ones that moan about everything from shooting to squads to waiting etc etc .....oh and moan about cost of competition (as we are not expected to make a living)....or that they don't want people to be having lessons because they want to be in and out quick because their Sunday dinner is in the oven....or they have another shoot to go to.....

Well I would receive all this information and think....you know what.......I cannot be arsed with this competition hassel anymore.

I might consider it when shooters value it so until then ESP guys.........do you want to shoot OT or UT and learn a sport where the big boys play?

That is what I would say to sporters who are losing grounds : laugh:

Disclaimer before softarses start......this is not meant to be a comment about all shooters....just a wake up call to the moaners out there.....who 'could' be spoiling it for others. (and I am not singling out Will , I was using his example volunteered to expand on.)

Hope that is clear enough peeps.

 

[RobertBeard]

Then its a case of us needing more shooters or fewer grounds.  Strikes me that people are probably shooting less and hanging on to their money which is why the high street chains that have not modernised are going bust. So its probably the recession at fault.

It can't just be the registered shoots that grounds survive on - there must be less being spent on tuition and practice but I take your point about the higher fixed costs for Registered ESP shoots due to Refs, Trappers etc. and reorganising these every fortnight or so.

 

[EdSolomons]

As you say, sporting has a much higher set of fixed costs, and that has to be re couped somehow. From the skeet/trap shoots Ive heard of the entries are very low it would seem, but the layouts are already there, need minimal setting up costs (re hooping every so often), only 4 refs, and few traps being taken up.

Contrast that with a 14 stand sporting, 14 refs plus relief, 28 traps, several days to set up/dissmantle and the £36/head seems pretty good next to £30 for skeet/DTL. The fact is that the grounds that dont put on what people want (good tarhets, good payouts and well run shoots) will get few entries, they put less into the next one and so on; ever decreasing returns. They wont carry on if they arent making money.

Contrast that to Steve and Ally as an example; great targets, great payout, well run- they are never short of an entry so they will carry on. I did A1 once, and it was a glorified trap shoot, so I dont go back. Did Horne once, was a skeet shoot- never go back. The listgoes on; do a good job and you will have all the business you want.

Im surprised at Kibworth as they were putting some really good shoots on when I was last there.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Bobby several ground do survive on competitions only because they are only open at weekends.

Then you have grounds like West Kent, Churchills, RBSS, that do fantastic jobs as practice grounds and corporate competition grounds and who are doing well....customer loyalty. Some are dipping their toe into doing Cpsa connected shoots...whether it is an evening registered or a Saturday now and then.......but how long will depend on how shooters and their manners.... treat their staff, their beautiful clubhouse facilities and their shooting stands...!

 

[** Pending Removal **]

As you say, sporting has a much higher set of fixed costs, and that has to be re couped somehow. From the skeet/trap shoots Ive heard of the entries are very low it would seem, but the layouts are already there, need minimal setting up costs (re hooping every so often), only 4 refs, and few traps being taken up.

Contrast that with a 14 stand sporting, 14 refs plus relief, 28 traps, several days to set up/dissmantle and the £36/head seems pretty good next to £30 for skeet/DTL. The fact is that the grounds that dont put on what people want (good tarhets, good payouts and well run shoots) will get few entries, they put less into the next one and so on; ever decreasing returns. They wont carry on if they arent making money.

Contrast that to Steve and Ally as an example; great targets, great payout, well run- they are never short of an entry so they will carry on. I did A1 once, and it was a glorified trap shoot, so I dont go back. Did Horne once, was a skeet shoot- never go back. The listgoes on; do a good job and you will have all the business you want.

Im surprised at Kibworth as they were putting some really good shoots on when I was last there.

Steve and Ali do just the best job around....they are liked by the shooters and even when they post on here they are helpful and polite to the shooters (not like the dulcit tones of Viscont W who can be either on the attack or bordering on polite.....even friendly....but then he is from Yarkshire xx :smile: and he does love us shootclayers). Everyone appreciates S&A and VW shoots and when I get chance to play in the winter months I head S&A's way without a second thought).Ed I am suprised that Kibworth has stopped too....if it is correct.

 

[Will Hewland]

It's simple maths, as most business cases are. Registered sporting shoots do have a fixed cost to set up; typically they require about 50 entries to break even I strongly suspect. If like A1 you are getting 20 entries then it is a loss making event. In their case it became a downward spiral because they saw it as unrewarding so did not develop it. Because it was undeveloped, their entry continued to dwindle. I can't believe they went on in that 'nowhere' position for several years. In business you need to kill off a loss maker or reinvent it into a profitable entity.

If you get 200 entries then you can likely view the last 100 entries as very profitable indeed. Sporting is the most popular form of clay shooting, so this (or 100) should not be impossible if the ground is not too far away from the populous. But the shoot will need to be decent.

Nic, a bit unfair to blame Sporting shooters attitudes. You have just written off 80% of all competition shooters in one fell swoop. It is simply that there is choice out there and A1 compared very unfavourably with the other options open to the customers. I took over a business that, at the time, was keen to tell its customers that the product was right and the customer was wrong. BIG changes needed to overcome that one!

 

[ExSCA]

How many on here say thank you ref each time they leave a stand (when he or her has been sitting there freezing their balls off all morning).

How many say thank you at the end of the day to the owner who provided the shooting no matter what you thought of it.

The first one - EVERY SINGLE TIME

The second one - 9 times out of 10 - if I know the owner/setter - I will always say thanks and give any feedback there and then/

 

[** Pending Removal **]

The first one - EVERY SINGLE TIME

The second one - 9 times out of 10 - if I know the owner/setter - I will always say thanks and give any feedback there and then/

Nice.

 

[EdSolomons]

The first one - EVERY SINGLE TIME

The second one - 9 times out of 10 - if I know the owner/setter - I will always say thanks and give any feedback there and then/

As above.

 

[ianmaney]

I always thank the ref on every stand, lets face it, its a thankless job with some of the arrogant tossers in the shooting fraternity, i don't always thank the ground owners unless i know them or i bump into them before we leave so its not always possible.

 

[Darkside]

The first one - EVERY SINGLE TIME

The second one - 9 times out of 10 - if I know the owner/setter - I will always say thanks and give any feedback there and then/

...me too, with a smile

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Will I do not get where you get your 20 from. I have been there lots of times for OT when ESP comp has been on and there have been a lot more than that. You cannot get in the car park .

If it is not for you then fine .....but it is not fair on here to actively put people off it. As for some practice days at the weekend in good weather they are rammed with people.