Lead ban again !

[jwpzx9r]

nah osmium wont do ...

what's osmium, I knew i should have paid attention at school ?

It is the most dense naturally occurring element nearly twice as dense as lead... also very hard and  at about £1000 per lb not much use as a lead sub  

 

[ips]

It is the most dense naturally occurring element nearly twice as dense as lead... also very hard and  at about £1000 per lb not much use as a lead sub  

oh THAT osmium, you should have been more clear ??

 

[Skeet UK]

Interesting but in reality aside abundance, cost and hardness density is the important factor . That is where lead scores...

My point exactly!

The question was "why there isn't a credible ... alternative?"

The reason, is that the only elements close to lead in density, are either too soft, too dangerous, to expensive or Bismuth!

Thorium is plentiful...let's try that.

 

[westley]

oh THAT osmium, you should have been more clear ??

In that case I have met a lot of 'Osmium' people in my time  !   :angel:  

 

[Wonko the Sane]

On the real world side - - - there has never been a credible, scientific study that identifies lead shot as a deleterious agent in the environment.  All the BS is based on OTHER sources that have been pointedly not mentioned in the so-called studies of lead shot.  No one care to remember that lead is inert (which means that it will not , as in NOT, bleed into the water) and that the oxidation that occurs on it is not lead oxide but the oxides of the elements used as hardeners.

The real evidence of the lead bans is that of the absolutely undying attempts by any means to get the guns.

Pretty much JMO but lead really is inert

 

[jwpzx9r]

The toxicity of lead is associated with molecular level quantities found in burning leaded fuel ... there is no argument about its effect at a molecular level... but lead shot never gets to the point where it is dispersed at a molecular level... so its toxicity as a charge for shotgun ammo is very questionable however ingestion and subsequent digestion with stomach acids definite problems there methinks.

 

[jwpzx9r]

My point exactly!

The question was "why there isn't a credible ... alternative?"

The reason, is that the only elements close to lead in density, are either too soft, too dangerous, to expensive or Bismuth!

Thorium is plentiful...let's try that.

Yep but by quoting molecular you give the impression that it is in same way pertinent ... Radon 220 is a gas! you can trust me I am a scientist

 

[Paul120]

The toxicity of lead is associated with molecular level quantities found in burning leaded fuel ... there is no argument about its effect at a molecular level... but lead shot never gets to the point where it is dispersed at a molecular level... so its toxicity as a charge for shotgun ammo is very questionable however ingestion and subsequent digestion with stomach acids definite problems there methinks.

Half of the industrial parts  Lancashire ( the centre of the industrial recolution) water pipes up until  the mid  part  20th century ( it still sounds odd that we are now on thw 21st). It didn"t occur to anyone that it may have been an issue. However it was concluded that there was  some increased lead levels in people. It was found that there was a relationship with lower brain activity and criminality.  After the petrol lead ban and the replacement  of lead pipes Car theft  decreased.

As there are no reported instance of a duck joy riding it must be concluded that there is no problem with lead shot.  :angel:

Thorium, although aparrently abundant and has been used in the past is mildly radioactive and has a tendancy to ingnight in contactin air if granulised. 

I'm surprised  though that some clever person hansn't  come up with a stable compound yet.

 

[jwpzx9r]

It is all a matter of cost... not just in the production of a cartridge though, you have to take legacy into account. Lets be clear if tomorrow... if the powers that be declared that everybody had to use steel shot cartridges there would be an outcry... not because of the material of the shot as such more due to the fact that people such as myself would find our precious companions unusable. This is it in a nutshell it is not that a particular shot is not suitable... for lets face it if we are all shooting the same cartridges then where the gripe ? It is the fact there are many very nice shotguns that cannot shoot steel loads... now if for example if the powers that be deemed that hence forth all cartridges must be charged with steel only many, many shooters would be disenfranchised that is the real argument ... it is not what you shoot it is the gun you shoot it through... sadly this is the issue.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

The toxicity of lead is associated with molecular level quantities found in burning leaded fuel ... there is no argument about its effect at a molecular level... but lead shot never gets to the point where it is dispersed at a molecular level... so its toxicity as a charge for shotgun ammo is very questionable however ingestion and subsequent digestion with stomach acids definite problems there methinks.

Lead is commonly used as a material for acid containers.  Lead in car batteries is in an acid bath and lasts for years eroded only by electrolysis.  As you and others mention, molecular lead is a culprit and lead shot is not.  I have never seen a credible field/game/death rate study and I suspect they do not exist.

 

[Jim Wheeler]

An interesting article from 2014, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29568505 

It seems that under some instances even solid lead can be toxic.  iImight have to have a test for lead poisoning, as i made shot, bullets and fishing weights for donkey`s years, the missus thinks i`m going mad from the fumes !

 

[Wonko the Sane]

An interesting article from 2014, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29568505 

It seems that under some instances even solid lead can be toxic.  iImight have to have a test for lead poisoning, as i made shot, bullets and fishing weights for donkey`s years, the missus thinks i`m going mad from the fumes !

The fumes can be toxic

 

[Skeet UK]

Yep but by quoting molecular you give the impression that it is in same way pertinent ... Radon 220 is a gas! you can trust me I am a scientist

I was quoting the atomic weight of those metals, which of course, is pertinent. 

Naturally, looking for a metal, I would not be considering isotopes of Radon. Are you a chemist?

I think Thorium is the answer to most of our problems.  

If they would build Thorium fuelled, molten salt reactors, we could all have super abundant, cheap energy, which means we could all afford to shoot Bismuth at everything!

 

[525kev]

I'd like to comment but i can't cause i aint qualified