MK38 Grade 5 v MX2000 S

[jwpzx9r]

Please accept my apologies Ian its a term I, and many others, used quite a lot but not meant to be a personal insult... but don't lose track simply saying you have  seen Perazzi owners break springs make that a thing that happens to the individual REGULARLY. It infers that seeing the owner of a particular make of gun shoots regular straights just because you have seen then shot by someone who used that brand of gun. As to the Beretta thing well you have been shooting  Beretta for thirty years ...  for god's sake man have you learnt nothing over those years

On the point of spare trigger units... make no sense whatsoever financially. Any spring can break no matter how new. The best idea for any Perazzi owner who is cacking their breeks over the possibility of a spring breaking in a competition is to do what I do have a set of springs that are used for comps only you fit them the night before the comp... they have fired very few shells over the year... could still break though but hey where do you stop / start with your confidence ... next year they can be fitted as the practice session springs if you feel the need... I don't as yet because really if a spring breaks in a practice round I have lost nothing at all.

 

[ips]

none taken john don't worry .

so you are suggesting a set of practice springs and a set of comp springs. The faith you must have in perazzi springs!!!! People shoot perazzi despite of the fact that undeniably they have a history of trigger spring issues. I have no problem with that it matters not to me but I have never needed a spare spring for any gun I have shot.

just saying

 

[jwpzx9r]

John

all I can say is this. In thirty years of competitive shooting I have never broken a Beretta spring neither have I witnessed one break. I have however seen quite a few perazzi springs and know that many folk who shoot perazzi have a spare trigger group. Fare to point out have never witnessed a miroku or browning spring break. I cannot quantify it and tell you how many and over what period. You can hark on as much as you like but fact is fact and furthermore I take exception to you using such language as "sh**e" regarding my post as I do not ever reply to yours or anyone else's posts in that manner.

it is fare to say that inexperienced shooters will not be able to tell any difference between budget and quality cartridges but experienced shooters can and that is why no one ever won a world cup with budget cartridges to the best of my knowledge. You are my friend in a dream world.

Ian shooters who win world cup events are sponsored to the hilt and don't even need to worry about what they are blasting out of the end of their barrels. I do though know shooters down here who have shot in world championships indeed who have won their class in world and European championships events who shoot humble locally made €50 per carton cartridges

edit

It must also be fair to point out that the best trap shooters in the world also are no mug's and choose Perazzi, the best and most successful trap gun that has ever been made, to break the targets to win their world cup/ championship/ Olympic games gold medals ! Occasionally another brand has a win ... but not very often  

 

[balltrap]

Shooting perazzi   with budget cartridges that says it all :angel:

Fur coat no knickers comes to mind

 

[jwpzx9r]

Shooting perazzi   with budget cartridges that says it all :angel:

 Sorry you misunderstand he does not shoot a Perazzi He shoots a very old very basic Browning B25 ... very, very effectively... but like a lot of veteran shooters he knows sh*te when he smells it  

edit

for the record the carts I use are more expensive than the ones he uses ... but I am too lazy to drive to the shop I get mine ,Clever T2,over the internet at €51 per carton free del although I am thinking of changing to Mary Arm Cyrano €44 per carton and a great cartridge... have to drive to get them though hmmm

 

[Cosmicblue]

I am considering purchasing a new shotgun for shooting sporting and have decided on either a new Miroku or Perazzi. Having shot the MK38 Sporter and Trap my preference would be for the latter, especially with 32" fixed choke barrels. I think that the Miroku is absolutely excellent value for the money. The only criticism I have of the Miroku is that the trigger pull leaves a lot to be desired but I am sure that a competent gunsmith could improve this. I also like the MX2000 S. It has the look and feel of a quality shotgun. The trigger pulls are excellent, light and crisp. What I am struggling to get my head round is the price difference between the two guns. Both guns appear to be well engineered and built too last. Is the Perazzi MX2000 S so much better than the Miroku as to justify it's price tag, three and a bit times more than the cost of a new MK38 Grade 5 Trap gun? Before I make my decision I would like to know, preferably from Perazzi owners, if the additional expense of the Perazzi has been a worthwhile investment.

Well that ignited a lively debate didn't it?

To get back to the core of your question, either gun will break clays equally effectively for sure.  Both are well made and engineered to last a lot longer than any of us are likely to live. The Perazzi is just made with exquisite attention to detail and the elegance of the design is undoubtedly more challenging to manufacture, reflected in the cost, which as you have noted is considerably higher than the Miroku.    Slip the stock off a Perazzi and you will discover that the components of the action are as beautifully finished as the outside of the gun and yet rarely seen by most owners.   The broken trigger spring story is related to the MX8 family of guns, when the guns are new are a pair of spare springs is provided along with the special tool needed to pop them in.   The MX2000S you are considering uses coil springs and are regarded as extremely reliable.

Break the MK38 open and you will see square holes in the floor of the action that correspond with lumps in the bottom of the barrels, beautifully machined and finished so that when the action is closed the joins are all but invisible.  Do the same to the Perazzi and discover the floor of the action is completely smooth, no holes at all, the action locks itself tight with an ingenious solution that compensates for wear, exquisite, necessarily expensive because its more complicated to machine.  The barrels of a Perazzi are still, to this day, assembled by hand, it takes time, absolute perfection is expensive. 

You can buy a lovely Miroku off the shelf and with a little luck it will probably fit you and all will be well and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.   For the Perazzi you can buy off the shelf too, but many owners, noting the considerable investment take a trip to Italy and get fitted in the factory/try their gun on the indoor range for the ultimate fit.  The additional cost is just a flight and a night in a hotel.   Most people don't realise that there isn't really a 'standard Perazzi' but rather a myriad of options, 5 different bore sizes for 12g, different ribs, slopes, sights, stocks, palm swells, grips, the balance point, inter-barrel webbing and even the final weight of the barrel assembly (stamped on the item) is user definable. 

Some of us have discovered John Jeffries at HPX and have the fitting process completed in the UK - think of it as akin to buying a Ferrari and having it supplied by a tuning shop to an exact specification, unique to you.

Finally, it's your money, your choice.  There is a curious pleasure in getting a beautiful gun out of the cabinet, knowing it was made for you and that it's purpose is about to be fulfilled, many never get the chance or have the opportunity to experience that.  If you do, then enjoy every moment, you surely deserve it. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

John

all I can say is this. In thirty years of competitive shooting I have never broken a Beretta spring neither have I witnessed one break. I have however seen quite a few perazzi springs and know that many folk who shoot perazzi have a spare trigger group. Fare to point out have never witnessed a miroku or browning spring break. I cannot quantify it and tell you how many and over what period. You can hark on as much as you like but fact is fact and furthermore I take exception to you using such language as "sh**e" regarding my post as I do not ever reply to yours or anyone else's posts in that manner.

it is fare to say that inexperienced shooters will not be able to tell any difference between budget and quality cartridges but experienced shooters can and that is why no one ever won a world cup with budget cartridges to the best of my knowledge. You are my friend in a dream world.

I think it is also fair to say there are a great many people therefore that put themselves into a category that they are not worthy of when it comes to what experience they have of their shooting. I would go as far as to say 95% or more of the general shooting public are not capable of telling the difference they are simply not good enough shots. The people you are talking about are given the cartridges they shoot in competition for free they do not pay high prices to massage their brain ... or is it ego?

 

[cockney21]

Just remember marketing has a lot to play in shooting. If you wanted the very best gun fit to you 100% then there are any number of gun makers that will build you a gun. It will cost many times more than a Perazzi, probably, but be better made and finished. Perazzi know their market and are willing to make sure their guns are very high profile and seen everywhere. They are in the price bracket that fits with experienced shooter's, and the nature of Trap shooting tends to result in a very obsessive following for the brand...they are an excellent gun, the company knows their market but at the end of the day there are any number of makers which can and do build guns which are just as good. If you was the marketing department of another maker would you fancy the idea of trying to break the Perazzi domination of Trap?

 

[jwpzx9r]

"I believe none p aftermarket springs are available or can be made. "

Ian just for the record that is not the case I have bought my springs from this guy http://www.mm-accessory.com/index.php he gives a one year warranty on a set of springs and he also makes a limited assortment of other Perazzi spare parts... Perazzi owners may want to keep a note of this site

 

[Dog Tyred]

Just remember marketing has a lot to play in shooting. If you wanted the very best gun fit to you 100% then there are any number of gun makers that will build you a gun. It will cost many times more than a Perazzi, probably, but be better made and finished. Perazzi know there market and are willing to make sure their guns are very high profile and seen everywhere. They are in the price bracket that fits with experienced shooter's, and the nature of Trap shooting tends to result in a very obsessive following for the brand...they are an excellent gun, the company knows their market but at the end of the day there are any number of makers which can and do build guns which are just as good. If you was the marketing department of another maker would you fancy the idea of trying to break the Perazzi domination of Trap?

Good post. 

Beretta have tried to break the Perazzi strong-hold with the launch of the DT11 and made some in-roads but at what cost ? Lots of lucrative sponsorship deals for ex-Perazzi devotees, with some major successes but still have a long way to go to displace Perazzi as the go-to competition gun, particularly at trap. The Perazzi marketing department work very hard at publicising their successes.

DT

 

[jwpzx9r]

For any interested Perazzi owners there is a newer spring design on the market sold by the site I linked above. It does not have a locating pin to hold it to the trigger unit instead the kit comes with a pin which is pushed through the existing locating hole and then capped this pin hold the springs in place without having any stress effect on the spring. The original springs are prone to breakage at the point around the locating pin. The other great advantage is the springs then become useable on both sides of the trigger so you don't need a left or a right spring just a spring.

 

[ips]

. The original springs are prone to breakage at the point around the locating pin. The other great advantage is the springs then become useable on both sides of the trigger so you don't need a left or a right spring just a spring.

eh ?

I thought you were arguing that it was a myth. ??

 

[jwpzx9r]

eh ?

I thought you were arguing that it was a myth. ??

Ian I have not in any of my posts said it is a myth... I have said in my opinion it is not a regular occurrence for the individual owner... unless you can define the term regular. Blackstar doodah says he knows Perazzi owners who spend a lot of time changing hammer springs... that is not something that has affected me or any other owner that I know. I have had one failure of a spring which I had shot for two years and about 20k shells in a second hand gun... I have no idea how many shots that spring had fired before I got the gun but what I can say with complete honesty and certainty is the guy who I bought it from when asked to take the trigger out told me had never ever had the trigger out of the gun in his ownership and he had owned it for more than 15years ! He did also say though that the gun had been unused for the last ten years, it took use two hours to get the trigger out it was so gummed up with crud ... if that is regular it is a situation I have no problem with whatsoever. It is easy to blurt out what you have seen but how have these breakages affected the individual owner ? I thought this article from another trap shooting web site was quite interesting... basically from the point of view of how actual Perazzi owners view the perceived problem... you may want to read or not but it is enlightening in my opinion. http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/perazzi-broken-flat-hammer-springs-part-2.184443/

 

[Blackstar Ninja]

So Jwprat or what ever your name is! (If you don't like your screen name being intentionally miss stated then don't do it to others), let me define regular for you, as this appears to be the issue for which you are taking over this thread despite other contributors attempts to get it back on track! cars are generally serviced once a year that's considered regular, my motorbike is serviced twice a year that's considered regular. My 692 has been back to GMK three times in less than 15 months for the same ejector issue, that I consider a regular fault occurrence. Some other 692 owners haven't had this issue but doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Shooters with P gun replaces the same V Spring late last year (can't remember exactly when but it was during my clubs winter series so after October). Feb this year it goes again and the other Spring a month ago, that is a regular occurrence. Two other P Gun users had broken V springs two weeks ago one had spare trigger unit, the other borrowed the working Spring from the first guys trigger unit. Given that this again involved P Gun V springs on the same ground it's a regular occurrence. If a friends DT10 Spring goes that would not be a regular occurrence as he's owned the gun for over five years and never had a Spring issue before. Some springs may well see more use than others which may or may not have a bearing but Just because you have not experienced this or seen this doesn't mean it does not happen! Light bulbs blow and have to be replaced but just because you weren't there at the time doesn't mean it didn't happen, 'man' walked on the moon but just because you weren't there doesn't mean it didn't happen. Now I can understand that you have a favoured brand and feel the need to defend it against perceived slight based on your experience but your experience and opinion is not everybody's and as I clearly stated my opinion is based on P Gun owners that "I KNOW".  Now if you wish to take issue with anything else I've said then by all means PM me so that the thread can get back on track and with all due respect I'll do my best to ignore anything further you post and you can do me the same courtesy. 

End of.

 

[cockney21]

Just to add a thought...coil springs do also break but in most cases the gun will still fire. We had an old sxs with one coil spring broken and made no difference to that barrel, where as flat spring game over. Plenty of new English guns still use flat springs so can't be too much of an issue. Interesting to see that they cut them from solid bar ready bent for consistency.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

ok perazzi do not have a history of breaking trigger springs 40up and many others do not have spare trigger groups for this very reason. I have not witnessed perazzi trigger springs breaking during comp and practice on many occasions over the last thirty years. Anyone who shoots anything other than a perazzi is an *****.

that better for you..

Good to see that you finally admitted a simple truth

John

all I can say is this. In thirty years of competitive shooting I have never broken a Beretta spring neither have I witnessed one break. I have however seen quite a few perazzi springs and know that many folk who shoot perazzi have a spare trigger group. Fare to point out have never witnessed a miroku or browning spring break. I cannot quantify it and tell you how many and over what period. You can hark on as much as you like but fact is fact and furthermore I take exception to you using such language as "sh**e" regarding my post as I do not ever reply to yours or anyone else's posts in that manner.

it is fare to say that inexperienced shooters will not be able to tell any difference between budget and quality cartridges but experienced shooters can and that is why no one ever won a world cup with budget cartridges to the best of my knowledge. You are my friend in a dream world.

ips, you really need to give some thot to punctuating that unless it already says what you intended.

As to the Perazzi spring debate - who GAF?  For any shooter of consequence using a Perazzi the spring thing is a non-issue.  I'm a nobody and even I don't care.  I have spare triggers for all of mine but that is because I wanted to leave the ones original to the guns unmodified.  As new (to me) guns came to hand I took the time to find a pre-owned group to convert to a release/pull since that is what I shoot.  So the originals ride along as a spare in the event a spring breaks in the release cos they are not a 2min task to replace.  I also have a few extra springs floating around and every 20 years or so I replace one.  Well, actually it's been one in 25+ years so I lied about that.

my approach is, "Worry About Something Important".  Seems to work just fine for me tho YMMV

edit:  I forgot to add that considering the comments I've seen here regarding gun cleaning and maintenance I'm not surprised to hear of gun/trigger malfunction.  Perhaps if the problematic Perazzi users cleaned and properly lubed their guns as regularly as I do mine they would have fewer difficulties.  Just a thot. 

 

[Hamster]

Just to add a thought...coil springs do also break but in most cases the gun will still fire. We had an old sxs with one coil spring broken and made no difference to that barrel, where as flat spring game over. Plenty of new English guns still use flat springs so can't be too much of an issue. Interesting to see that they cut them from solid bar ready bent for consistency.

I used to play with the insides of spring air guns and remember once deliberately fitting a 3/4 size cut down aftermarket spring into an HW80 together with 1/4 lump cut from a knackered standard spring and the thing fired and grouped beautifully with zero hint of anything mechanical being awry. The only concession I made was making sure the flat sides rested against one another and of course the lubrication was using top end products. 

 

[Woodcock]

Thank you for sharing your experiences of the Miroku and Perazzi marques. It was very informative and has demonstrated that shooters have strong opinions about their guns based on their experience and anecdotal evidence. It is clear that what suits one shooter is not the same for another. It would appear that the cost involved is not always the deciding factor. The build, the fit, the handling qualities and the way in which targets are consistently broken is far more important than the marque. I was asked to define what I meant by the term "investment". I have just given it.

What suits one shooter might not suit another. It is good that we have a choice of different marques and that we don't have to accept that one size fits all. Since starting this thread I have ventured away from my initial favourites, Miroku and Perazzi.

Today I took Ips advice and bought a Beretta, the DT11. It is well built, we balanced, extremely pointable, has little perceived recoil and breaks targets in a very satisfying manner. It is a bit low in the comb for a Sporter but that is easily remedied. It is probably not any better than the Miroku or the Perazzi in some shooters eyes but it is my gun and I happen to like it very much. 

 

[Dog Tyred]

 but it is my gun and I happen to like it very much. 

And that Woodcock is all that matters

DT

 

[balltrap]

After all this we have another Beretta lover ? was investment ever mentioned !