Shotkam

[Westward]

I don't want to derail the other thread so I'm starting a new one.

So... Every Shotkam vid I watch leaves me wondering how useful they are because I can never make much sense of or get any value from what I'm seeing. Of course it's entirely possible, probable even, that the problem lies with me rather than the tech so I'd be interested to know what others think. Is the Shotkam a valuable addition to the toolbox or is it a pointless gimmick? 

 

[bisondan]

You'd be better off spending some money with a decent coach who will give you a good plan.

Shooting is process based and it's no good filming yourself shooting a load of clays, then looking at what you missed and not knowing why.

 

[Will Hewland]

I have a mate who is very methodical with his. Shoots same target many times and you can see variance in method, intended or otherwise. Any data recording is just the start, it’s how you use and apply the information gathered. I agree with Dan, get a decent shooting style from a coach (or read up and work it out if you prefer). Then you can fine tune and refine with some shotkam as part of the process. I’ve never used one. A bit late now maybe. However I would love to have somebody film me over my shoulder every shot through a shoot to analyse afterwards. Probably more use than just a shotkam IMO.

 

[Cosmicblue]

Because I have a terrible (and often expensive) weakness of buying almost any technology related gadget with a plug on it I've looked at the Shotkam and the glasses mounted Aimcam gizmo and even I can't bring myself to squander dosh on such things.

In the comfort of a chair indoors browsing the internet such things look like a cracking good idea, however there are so many dynamic variables at play that have nothing to do with the camera and seeing where the target is relative to the muzzle it is not actually a great deal of use in practical terms for re-usable repeatability.

We could have a go at a list of variables that the camera can't see:

1) Mounting the gun consistently

2) Head position, where are the eyes looking

3) Visual pickup of the target

4) Feet positioning

5) Wind

6).....

I've concluded that the journey of learning to shoot clays consistently is about building a set of skills for different target presentations, a bit like arriving at a stand with a 'tool box of refined techniques'.  Most times now I'll have a pretty good idea of how to break a particular target or the optimal sequence if it's a simo pair.   Such skills are honed by experience and quality coaching as there is no substitute for having an experienced shooter providing guidance to further sharpen the technique. 

 

[Jan Powell]

I don't want to derail the other thread so I'm starting a new one.

So... Every Shotkam vid I watch leaves me wondering how useful they are because I can never make much sense of or get any value from what I'm seeing. Of course it's entirely possible, probable even, that the problem lies with me rather than the tech so I'd be interested to know what others think. Is the Shotkam a valuable addition to the toolbox or is it a pointless gimmick? 

I’ve been using a ShotKam for a couple of years. Without doubt it’s proved a fantastic coaching aid. For me it didn’t resolve any significant errors but did help me iron out occasional mistakes that crept into my game.

I would say though if you’re not an experienced competitor it needs to be used in partnership with a good coach that can not only identify the mistakes captured on film but also suggest a cure.

All in all, it’s proved to be well worth the investment. It won’t instantly lift you from C to AA class but it’ll certainly help eliminate those small errors that cost points and titles.

 

[Lloyd]

This could be one of those topics which create a divide that will require Kofi Annan to mediate and quite possibly inconclusive.

I know of two highly respected coaches, one who swears by shotkam and another who believes it more of a hinderance.

@Cosmicblue for problem number 5 I’d recommend https://www.boots.com/boots-wind-relief-tablets-36-tablets-10131202

 

[Cosmicblue]

Oh Lloyd...I need a wholesale pack...

 

[Jan Powell]

This could be one of those topics which create a divide that will require Kofi Annan to mediate and quite possibly inconclusive.

Why?

If you want one, you get one. If you don’t, you don’t.

 

[Lloyd]

Why?

If you want one, you get one. If you don’t, you don’t.

Ahh, I see. The conclusion is, get a GoPro

 

[MartynB]

Here’s my two h’apporth Higher up this thread Bison Dan state’s that shooting is a process , and that is a comment that can’t be argued with . Everyone who shoots well has a basic process-and tweaks it as and when required . Cosmic Blue refers to the “ toolbox “ , agree 200% . 
 

you’ve obviously got an industrial background Lloyd , so think about SPC , before you can establish repeatability and run and control the process, the machine ( in this case it’s you not your equipment) has to be properly set up and capable of holding the tolerances that you are looking for ( in this case the tolerance is breaking say 70% of the clays shot at every time you go out ) .,

Until you do that , don’t try to see shot , don’t use tight chokes , don’t mess with a camera .  as a fairly new shooter none of those will drive improvement , just the opposite actually, you’ll just fill your head with clutter. 

 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Why?

If you want one, you get one. If you don’t, you don’t.

Jan... not that I am about to buy one, but how does the fitting of the actual device affect the dynamic of the gun? I have often thought ... what a minute if was to strap a weight onto the bottom barrel of my gun and shot it people would immediately tell me that will change the gun considerably take it off. Obviously you have great experience of using this shooting aid. My thought was that using it on your gun would make you shoot in a slightly different way than you would when you take it off?

 

[Lloyd]

@MartynB 

I can’t argue with that at all. Not least because I have insufficient experience to make any counter  claims, but I can actually identify with what your saying. Not the SPC so much as it’s damn near a waste of effort. For sure in a factory situation you would analyse human variances, but definitely at my early stage of shooting development, getting my “process” roughy close to that 70% you mentioned on a regular basis is proving to be more productive than fussing over little details

That though is my reason for questioning certain things. It’s actually become apparent that for me, at least for the time being, I need to filter out the “clutter” as much as I possibly can.

I’m finding for me at my stage, shooting has become more about learning about myself than pretty much anything else.

I’ve tried different chokes, SK & 1/4, 1/4 & 1/2, 14/ & 1/4 and I’ve settled recently on 1/2 & 1/2. For me that’s about not having to think about switching the barrel selector. I know 1/4 would do the job, but having the chokes a little tighter means I will need to learn to be more accurate, but won’t get totally disheartened by missing 90% with full/full.

The seeing the shot thing was a curiosity born from seeing the shot on a couple of occasions and wondering if say 3/4 & 3/4 would help me see the shot better for making lead corrections. Seems inconclusive, so I’ll stick with 1/2 & 1/2 and give it no more thought.

As it happens I’m finding some patterns in my shooting behaviours some which I believe are having a positive outcome and others a negative one.

First I’ve noticed; and since returning to shooting after lockdown, it’s become more apparent, that I often start out a bit lazy. Maybe a bit arrogant. Because I have broken some targets which I’m told are “competition deciders” and I’ve broken them repeatedly enough to have a sense that it was more than just luck. On the other-hand,  I’ve  missed so many 30 yard Crossers, teals, going away etc that it’s embarrassing. I think I’m not mentally connecting with the Clay first so little chance of visually connecting therefore. Once I get a bit miffed with myself and give myself a kick up the backside and remind myself why I’m there and what I need to be doing (the process) then it starts to come reasonably good and I’m not too far away from that 70% goal. But then towards the end of a session perhaps I’m tiring without realising. Maybe I have a miss, then I start mentally overworking it and I miss, miss, miss and miss some more. 
 

For me tinkering is temporary. It’s not part of my process, it’s part of my learning and eliminating things that maybe matter when your goal is 90% but are insignificant when your goal is consistently breaking 70%

It’s also about discovering what works for me and what doesn’t. To some extent maybe or even probably that will change over time anyway.

I’ve had nine different instructors so far. Some have offered up nuggets of gold, others have offered up in good faith things which for me and for now at least have hindered. 
 

I was told to face more square on, stand more upright. I was then told to stand more oblique and more weight forward. Doesn’t make much of a difference to me at the 70% goal. Yet a suggestion that I change my feet position on the premise that it would give me a greater range of swing sent me into a tail spin! I actually found the opposite. I think it was a placebo effect but the stance just felt so awkward it became a big distraction. So I knocked that on the head as something that doesn’t work for me, at lest for now and the fact I’ve been able to swing from over and behind my left shoulder to over and behind my right shoulder with a more natural feeling stance I think for now that’s what I’ll do and I’ll no longer give it anymore thought. One more less thing to worry about. Cartridges for me all feel the same. 21g, 28g, plastic, fibre, Hull, Express, Gamebore... so, another thing I don’t need to think about. 
Happy with how my gun fits me now. It’s comfortable. I worked on my mount and head position over lockdown. Could it be improved? Well depends upon who I ask, but I’m happy with it, so for the time being perhaps the next 1000 cartridges, I’ll not be giving that anymore thought either. 
 

Pre-shot routine? Well, I’ve given that a go too. Again, I’ve had good advice given in good faith, often conflicting. So I’ve tried whatever I’m advised and see how it works for me for now. My conclusion is that right now, I’m better off if I keep it to a minimum. Get in, see the clay, pick my hold points, visual pick up that “feel right” and get right on with it. None of that shouldering the gun, simulating the swing again and again. Works for some I’m quite sure, but not for me. Less really does mean more for me. Again, this may only be for the time being to get me to a certain level and I’m more than prepared to revisit old ideas as I learn and hopefully progress.

With regards to Shotkam;  just so this post isn’t wildly off piste, I personally don’t feel I’d benefit from it right now. I think I’d be getting information from it that I’m ill equipped to usefully understand and the five or so ounces hanging from my barrels would be a source of “Hmmm... I wonder if that shotkam is interfering with the gun balance?” thinking, when I know deep down it’s with the idiot pointing the gun where the problem lies.
 

So I’m at Sporting Targets for a couple of hours Saturday with in house instructor and again with Ed Solomons on the 22nd

The first session is to warm up the grey cells and remind myself why I’m there and what the “process” is. Then with Ed, look at perhaps one or two points that I can work on and improve.

My biggest weakness as see them are reading the target. Sometimes making a wild stab into space where I hope the target will be (due to under-thinking). Stopping the gun on occasion (over-thinking). Starting my hold point too high (bad for me) or too low (can get away with it). Moving the gun too soon or not soon enough or moving it to quickly because I haven’t connected mentally or visually.

Yet when I get my brain involved, my eyes are on the job and I let everything else take its natural course, my hand eye coordination, spatial awareness and timing can actually be quite good and the breaks are accurate and hard hitting. The problem with that can sometimes be, is believing what just happened is down to me, or trying take what came effortlessly and putting effort into repeating it and it all going tits up!

 

[Westward]

Lloyd, just a suggestion here and I won't be offended if you disagree, but I'd say sticking with just one instructor and listening to no one else would be the quickest and least costly route. Especially if you go with Ed Solomons.  

 

[Lloyd]

@Westward

I am glad you won’t be offended

I do take your point of course and you’re right. That said, Ed isn’t the cheapest chap around (but price and value aren’t the same thing and Ed is very good value)  and he’s not that easy to get a hold of at times I have availability myself.

Secondly, I need to benchmark. Of nine instructors, I’d say one was arguably on Ed’s level. Completely different approach. Not at all unhelpful. Ed’s approach is more likely to work for me, but this alternative coach by his more rigid only one way to do it approach gave things that Ed might not with his more work with your own style approach. Both add value in different ways.

Of the other seven coaches, one was a current AAA shot. Feedback though for me wasn’t great. Not his fault, it just didn’t work for me. So that’s him ruled out. Another coach, my more regular coach actually, he has been quite open that he feels I just need to go out and practice, that I can do everything that needs to be done, but just need to work through it on my own. I basically read that as I’ve gone really as far as I can there. All the other instructors gave nothing of significance, even ex medalists. Again, fantastic shots themselves and I’m sure they are very capable of coaching someone to a very high level, just didn’t gel for me.

So, I agree, one coach to develop consistency is best approach. Finding out who that is for me required benchmarks against other styles of coaching.

I’d say I’m pretty much done with that experiment and my plan is to stick with Ed and then go out and practice what he teaches me. I’m a little bit hamstrung at the moment as I’m still awaiting a home visit since before lockdown to check my safe so this has prolonged the experiment than I’d anticipated.

 

[thebigH91]

For me the Shotkam isn't a pointless gimmick but it isn't the be all and end all that some people think it is. There are a lot of variables that cannot be seen through the eye of the camera that a good coach can pick up on but watching the footage does help. After watching my first video I realised I was setting off before the target on certain stands (Skeet shooter) quickly sorted for the next shoots. I've also found that telling people how far in front they need to be to hit the target is a lot easier if you can show them visually (yes I know everyone sees lead differently) Its been said earlier if you want one get one I'd only ask people if the Shotkam was priced at say £200 would they buy one over a Go Pro or Aimcam

 

[Jan Powell]

Jan... not that I am about to buy one, but how does the fitting of the actual device affect the dynamic of the gun? I have often thought ... what a minute if was to strap a weight onto the bottom barrel of my gun and shot it people would immediately tell me that will change the gun considerably take it off. Obviously you have great experience of using this shooting aid. My thought was that using it on your gun would make you shoot in a slightly different way than you would when you take it off?

The weight is a factor but if you mount it in the correct position it's not a concern. Within 10 targets you don't notice it's there. Removing it is not an issue because when the ShotKam isn't fitted a barrel weight is.

 As a trap shooter I shoot a gun in excess of 10lbs anyway.

 

[Cosmicblue]

Lloyd - Your posts here remind me of my own journey in learning to shoot (started aged 50 in 2008).  When I started out I had no friends that shot clays, so would go every Saturday morning for a lesson....well over 100 of those.  I then had several sessions with Carl Bloxham...who interestingly perhaps reckoned that an average shooter would take 30,000 shells to reach a reasonable degree of competency, with a requirement to shoot 120+ a week minimum to maintain steady improvement.  It's probably not far off the mark either.

Having worked in technically orientated roles all my life I'm acutely analytical and figured out, as you have too, that taking out all the 'variables' that you have control over would provide a solid baseline to work from.  I don't fiddle with chokes, have found that cartridge price/load has little bearing on outcome at my meagre level of ability either. 

I found that when one stops worrying about the score and start experimenting with different techniques the very thing that you stopped worrying about improves all on it's own.   

I had a tendency to 'hold on to targets for too long' and then suffered when a SIM pair were presented so now I try to shoot most targets early, without rushing unnecessarily...adding additional refined techniques to the tool box in the process.

Shooting is a social activity (the bit I missed most in Lockdown) and shooting with other people who are more competent is essential for me, probably more so than coaching now

 

[wynno]

Seeing that there are many opinions, thought I’d give mine as well.

shooting is something that is supposed to be pleasurable, and that means you enjoy doing it. Sure you can buy all the cameras and other gizmos that say “use me” I’ll make you a better shot, but going down that road means subconsciously you have to justify the cost to yourself and that means more pressure to perform, which invariably means poor performance. All the gear, no idea springs to mind.

Find a good coach and stick with him or her, if they use a camera to record you shooting, AND use it to show your shortcomings and how you can make the subtle changes to your routine,so much the better.

£250 spent on a good coach is better than being spent on gizmos 

 

[Lloyd]

@Cosmicblue 

Thanks. Indeed, very similar to me.

I shoot to enjoy it and 100% agree, it’s more enjoyable when the experience is shared with people, more so when they’re friends and family rather than someone you’re paying. 

A forum member invited me to a shoot a few weeks ago. Despite that possibly being the worst shooting session I’ve done to date, it was also one of the most enjoyable. 
 

Ive actually enjoyed  shooting most when I’ve shared a lesson with my son at various grounds. We’re both a little bit competitive, but not seriously so. Although my son has a little less experience than I and far fewer lessons, he shoots as well as I do. Often I’ll hit targets he misses and visa versa. We don't keep score, but the odd thing is, the last time we shot together was a Kelbrook just before lockdown. He had a poorer day and I had a better day than usual. That somehow was a little less enjoyable than when at Sporting Targets where he gave me a damn good run for my money (actually really was my money! The canny beggar )