Sunday Sporting Shenanigans - Hunting in packs

[Will Hewland]

Many scorers either "don't need the aggro" of a dispute or simply don't understand that their agreement to draw a line rather than a circle can cause £150 to be awarded wrongly. I love it when they are correct and firm with somebody. Some really do roll over.. I have experienced everything with scorers over time. Given birds I didn't feel I hit, losses I know I hit, no birds when unnecessary, NOT no birds when necessary. It's all just human failings of course.. The only side that is unforgivable is when they do easily roll over to a shooters suggestion, or worse, don't know the rules for first bird on sim pairs etc.

 

[Jim Wheeler]

correct Bryn, we had an `unwritten rule` especially in a cape town wind,,   "IF IT`S IN THE AIR, SHOOT IT! "  unless its way off or broken ,,,  get on with it.

 

[Hamster]

Many scorers either "don't need the aggro" of a dispute or simply don't understand that their agreement to draw a line rather than a circle can cause £150 to be awarded wrongly. I love it when they are correct and firm with somebody. Some really do roll over.. I have experienced everything with scorers over time. Given birds I didn't feel I hit, losses I know I hit, no birds when unnecessary, NOT no birds when necessary. It's all just human failings of course.. The only side that is unforgivable is when they do easily roll over to a shooters suggestion, or worse, don't know the rules for first bird on sim pairs etc.

Correct as always, will just mention though that many's a time I've seen a shooter correctly dispute a zero about to be written down on the card. Only yesterday I watched someone break a slow rabbit perfectly well (this was causing plenty of misses) and pause to query the scorer, myself and another shooter backed him up but youngsters can fall into a haze at times so as much as I too hate seeing bullying especially by the pot hunters, don't assume they're wrong 100% of the time.

In the vast majority of cases though my experience has been pretty good, my memory bank has more good behaviour instances in it than otherwise.

 

[jwpzx9r]

I am relatively new to shooting and only shoot trap... never seen that happen ever. The only no birds I have ever seen called is for breaking target or already being broken so flying incorrectly and not flying within the limit of the shooting area... and not normally the shooter who calls it. I can understand claims of a hit because sometimes you do get a big deflection from the original flight path but if it does not break or chip its a miss... although I have seen a few targets where there has been no chip but a massive deflection and it given as a hit!

 

[Rosso]

I had it on trailing pairs. 1st bird came out I missed it trailing 2nd was no bird.

Scorer said pair again 1st bird lost.

I said pair again and they both count.

A discussion took place after second and third opinions I got the pair both to count.

That was at BSG who's scorers are mostly instructors.

On another shoot my mate hit 9 out 10 scorer put 9 kills on card then wrote 7 !!

I hit 8 kills marked on card he wrote down 6.

That was at Southdown.

At Gunsite stand 10 scored on stand 9 on card.

I am not having a go at scorers and they on the whole are very good but you have to keep an eye on them.

You know most of us wear shooting glasse which enhance a difficult to see clay in the background.

So how does a scorer see the chip wearing prescription plain glasses as many scorers do.

I don't cheat nor do I condone it but it does cut both ways.

Imagine loosing a shoot by 1 clay that you hit but was scored as a miss.

They should also call out killed / lost, not just write it on the card to argue about later.

 

[schmokinn]

at a shoot in july which i will not name they seem to consistently have three young lads on stands that pay no attention at all to what's happening.

i shot 8 and was given a card with 4 on it as i mentioned it to the scorer the 10 people behind me chimed in without any prompting,made me feel a bit better as i did not want to be accused of bullying in any way.

fortunate i guess but a ridiculous situation...the reverse of this is another shoot i go too which all the scorers are teenage girls presumably from a local school and i have never seen a miss score there.

surely there should be some sort of minimum standard for scorers.

i cannot think of any other sport where scoring can be so random...as for no birds its sporting and i agree that unless they come out in pieces or are on the ground before there up due to wind its a fair target.

 

[Will Hewland]

If I ran a shoot, scorers would find out what a bossy, fussy, vocal, opinionated, value-for-money-seeking person I am. (In case they hadn't heard..)

 

[Rosso]

Where's this shoot with teenage girl scorers.

Most of shoots I go to they just about got a pulse.

 

[wylye]

Finding qualified scorers is extremely difficult, particularly at this time of year when the weather is poor. Finding enough scorers for 12 stands or so is again difficult. A week before the shoot the intention may be to have a qualified ref on each of the 12 stands, by 8pm on the Saturday night its sufficient qualification for them to be able to walk and talk at the same time. Know the rules? Do me a favour. You're just relieved they turned up. 

Welcome to the real world.

 

[Will Hewland]

^ sad but true I'm sure. Ian, do you think if ground owners offered a bit more money it would help? At a big shoot another £1 from each shooter could go a long way to induce better scorers??

 

[Jim Wheeler]

I am also surprised that  kill -  lost  is not announced at ESP ?  any reason?

in the past in FITASC I was used to `lost`  called to each target missed,  as the stand proceeded, which I still do anyway, when as is often the case , a squad scores themselves these days,,

forgot to say, this is at small non reg shoots, and s/balers,,,,

 

[Will Hewland]

Calling varies totally between scorers. Except at four counties where they are trained (in a way that I find bit annoying) but at least they are all the same so top marks to the ground for having a system and even issuing them all the same shirts. It borders upon professional!

 

[wylye]

I think that pay rates have a big effect on the type of scorer/referee you end up with at a shoot. The going rate varies from area to area but maybe a scaled pay scheme is the best way around the problem.  In other words, more entries for the ground, more pay for the staff.

 

[Rosso]

So what happens if you hit a clay scorer says no but you are adamant you hit it.

I just accept it and move on.

But how do appeal it if there's big prizes at stake.

I asked a reff at Churchills what he gets paid he said it varies but around £85.00. More for big shoots.

That's not bad cash in hand for a mornings work.

 

[Will Hewland]

I guessing that was for a pretty full day..

 

[Rosso]

He said that's the average around here. I've seen him at Southdown too. So he travels about a bit.

Driving expenses must come into it.

Hardly worth it. Can understand if shoot is local.

 

[jgbrew]

I work at Churchill's and referee on the CPSA shoots when work permits and only get paid the minimum hourly wage. Only exception was the World Sporting Championship which was £80 a day. The first 4 hours just about covers my travelling costs after the taxman has had his share.

 

[Finners]

Good point(s) Will, I can't help wondering if all guns know the rules though? Or is it a case of bar snooker where "local" rules seem to appear as and when required. 

As a non competitive shooter, may I ask, what is the rule for Sim Pairs? 

 

[Nimbusgb]

Don't understand the urge to cheat, must be something deficient in the personality.

Having said that I've been given kills I thought I'd missed [SIZE=14.3999996185303px]dumb enough to question it too [/SIZE](usually 1st of a sim pair) and been denied clays I was pretty sure I'd hit, so swings and roundabouts.

As to the clays not being 'standard', what a load of carp, don't think I've shot even a reg skeet comp where the wind wasn't moving the things all over the place N. Ayrshire the wind comes over the hill behind the high house and goes into a vortex which varies depending on wind strength, Auldgirth the wind funnels through from behind either house and its strength determines what happens to the clays, Westlands the wind swirls and is sometimes totally unpredictable.

Sporting is supposed to be derived from game shooting and in my experience grouse, rabbits, partridge, duck or whatever don't have a set speed and trajectory. If what has been stated is happening then some guns need to grow up or pack up. IMHO

NimbusGB I suspect your comment is tongue in cheek but not difficult to set up with a short rewritable memory so the last 5 or 10 minutes can be reviewed and any disputed breaks saved for review by a panel. Not for the run of the mill shoots but maybe for the majors.

I have a High Definition dashcam set up in my car, cost less than £50 and records on a continuos loop to a micro SD card. Worth every penny last time someone dinged the last car. Perfect for the job. 

We could do it like traffic cameras. 5 or 6 empty boxes and a couple of 'live' cameras, you'd never know which one was real so the 'pucker' factor before mouthing a challenge on the ref would be heightened. With a dual camera setup it would be easy to record looking backwards from the clays getting a recording of any verbal abuse to the refs too!

(  yes somewhat tongue in cheek )

 

[Nimbusgb]

Good point(s) Will, I can't help wondering if all guns know the rules though? Or is it a case of bar snooker where "local" rules seem to appear as and when required. 

As a non competitive shooter, may I ask, what is the rule for Sim Pairs? 

depends on the discipline I think, I was reading the FITASC rules over the weekend and there's a table depending on which bird misfired, how many shots you took at them and whether you hit any or not.

Generally speaking the whole idea is to NOT give you an opportunity to improve your score.

6.5.1 onwards of this document http://www.fitasc.com/upload/files/Rglts_PCH_01012013_ENG.pdf